Bad Calcium Score. How to reduce it

(zee) #1

Hello I am a software developer and got into keto diet cuz i am big fan of Carl Franklin! Well after being 4 months of low carb, i got my blood panel done which was high but then i got my calcium score which was 120! It is shockingly high for my age of 35. Doctor immediately put me on statin and very low carb diet and asked me to drop my weight by 40lbs. Below are my details if anyone can help me, it would be great.

Age: 35 Asian
Physical activity very little. sit on my desk and code all day.
Recenly diagnosed with blood pressue but not too high so taking 10mg
Weight: 200lbs
height: 5ā€™11

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Below are my questions.

  1. Can i continue down the path of going 20 carbs or less and also be taking statin every day. My cardiologist wants me to stay very low carb and also be taking statins at the same time.

  2. He wants me to stay away from saturated fat and stay in moderation as far as fat cuz of high calcium score. He says since there are not enough studies yet on high fat diet and what results it will have over a long period of time on my cardio vascular systm, its better to keep it in moderation. Before my calcium score, he was fine with ketogenic way but then after getting cac numbers he says keep low carb, eat lean meant, no fruits, wheat grain. Stick with lean meat and green leefy vegetables which has very minimum carbs.

  3. The very important question, can this be cured? how can i reduce my calcium score or can it be done at all by staying low carb and intermittent fasting?

  4. What numbers should i look for in my lipid panel to determine if my caclcium score is increasing. Since LDL numbers are not reliable based on what everyone say and lipid panel results are not a definate answer, how do i know if my disease is increasing or decreasing since i cannot do another calcium in any near future. What other metrics or test that can be done to determine how i am doing every 6 months.

  5. based on my calcium score and age, what is my probablity of getting heart attack?

  6. What supplements i need to take to ensure and reduce plaque in my arties? i read something about vitamin k2, how does that play?

  7. What kind of low carb food will help in providing me the nutrients necessary so that calcium deposit doesnā€™t increase?

  8. Also in my results above, what numbers are really bad and concerning and what should i be working on and how?

  9. How long does it take to get to this 120 calcium score? few years or 5-10 years? could i have caught it early? were there any early symptons i could have catched?

  10. Is there articles that i can read to figure out how the calcium starts forming in the arties? I want to understand what causes arties to get inflammed and ruptured?
    I see several people with my same dilemma in the forum where they started on keto diet and got the calcium score high > 100 but none of us know what to do next? it is life threatning, so there is got to be a cure or way of reducing the pluque. Also what is the alternative for Calcium score test. cuz this test tells whether u have cardio vascular disease or not. if u cannot do that again in near future, then what test should i do?

Advice to get calcium score lowered?
(Rob) #2

Thatā€™s a lot of questions and I am qualified to answer about 0.

This tells you which arteries have the calcium - https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/349040-overview e.g. Left Anterior Descending and Left Circumflex in your case. You can look into whether those have higher risk than others?

I will point you at this - https://www.docmuscles.com/vascular-plaque-reduction-with-ketogenic-diet-a-case-study/ suggesting that atherosclerosis can be reversed on keto.

I donā€™t know how long it took you to get to 120 but whatever it is, Iā€™m not sure if it has a bearing on how quickly it can go? At least 120 is not 400 (definitely about to have an episode) so you have caught it relatively early. As Ivor Cummins says, the key issue is not so much the level but that you donā€™t increase it. Increases create blockages from just restrictions and also the chance of the plaque caps rupturing and floating off to kill you :scream:

Arterial plaques seem to be made of cholesterol (the repair agent - which is why Keys thought it was the cause of heart disease) and calcium (the actual repair medium trying to patch things up) as well as some other lipids and fibrin. To reduce your calcium score would require ā€˜dissolvingā€™ (or reabsorbing) these plaques I guess, the first step of which would be to reduce the inflammation to as low as possible (low carb, low toxins). Assuming the body can reabsorb or reprocess (via Autophagy?) without loosening these plaques to float off and kill you. :scream:

There is some discussion that calcium (which should go to bones and nails etc.) often just floats around the blood and muscles which makes it more likely to be deposited within plaques. Apparently, Vitamin K2 is important in making sure that calcium goes to bones and not blood so you might want to take that to manage the calcium you are taking in (diet or supplement).

Not sure if any lipid scores have been algorithmically related to calcium deposition but having very low inflammation and good standard lipid rations e.g. Trig:HDL would be good indications. Your A1C is low but your insulin is upper range suggesting you are getting IR.

Overall, if I were you, Iā€™d be slightly concerned that I have any CVD at 35 but Iā€™d be ecstatic that I found it early enough and have the information to address it. Being Asian (S Asian I am guessing) may be a risk factor for inflammatory response to carbs so again, good to have found its impacts way earlier than most would even start looking!! I would consider this whole thing a blessing rather than a curse of impending doom. Yay! :grin:

PS - I think your doctor is hedging his bets on the low carb AND low saturated fat. Heā€™s already doing great to get you on Keto originally but now heā€™s freaking out that his non-approved therapy might have given you heart disease (pretty sure it didnā€™t) but his malpractice brain is saying otherwise. You donā€™t need saturated fat particularly but you will need fat (even fat adapted) so you might have to be more creative about use of good mono-unsaturated fats (which Iā€™d find hard to do when bacon is so easy :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:).

(Alan Williamson) #3

Vitamin K supplement can help. Vitamin K helps tell the body where to put calcium in the body so it goes to the right places.

(Rob) #4

Some detail on what Vitamin K doesā€¦

It seems to help effectiveness when paired with Vitamin D3.

Iā€™m already taking both D3 and K2, though I have no measurable results as yet.

#5

I had a 240 score as a 53 yr old male with much better lipid numbers and my doc also flipped. I am also curious how to reverse. I have added 5000 ui vitamin d, fish oil to my multi vitamin and magnesium i take. based on an article from eric westman, not sure if it will help but i wont take the statins unless he can prove to me it will correct issue.

(Randy) #6

I agree with Rob. Personally, I will never take statins.

Inflammation is the problem, not saturated fat IMO. I would avoid industrial seed oils like the plague(which is basically what they are :wink: )

Ivor Cummins has some great science based info on this subject.

(Karen) #7

I remember reading something about l arginine, too.

K

(Jennifer Kleiman) #8

On a related issue, your HDL is kinda low. Your insulin, assuming it was fasting, is a little higher than optimal. Your trigs, well that fluctuates a lot but thereā€™s a couple ratios to look at, the trig/HDL ratio and the trig/fasting insulin McAuley index (https://www.insulinandmore.com/), both of which are great markers of insulin resistance. Your a1c and glucose scores indicate you havenā€™t run into prediabetic territory YET but be careful, youā€™re headed that way. Keto/LCHF, losing weight and/or incorporating regular physical activity will fix that issue.

(zee) #9

I have been on low carb diet for 4 months now staying around 50carb roughly. But i dont know how to get my HDL up, i eat 2 avocadoes a day, some macademia nuts, salmon. any idea of how to increase my HDL and lower trigs

(zee) #10

I really wish if someone can share more studies that shows if keto diet can slow down the plague growth? What is the normal growth of the plague? It seems CAC growth is about 20-30% every year. At this pace, i would be at a real high risk in 5-10 years. I really need to find answers proven answers that shows the science to actual taper down the growth or stop it.

(Ethan) #11

50g? Sounds like you may not be keto here. Go to 20, wait 6 months, get retested

(Rob) #12

If there were more studies we wouldnā€™t all need to hang out here for mutual support :grin:

Most of the current effort seems to have been put into diabetes reversal since that is most directly related to carbs and keto.

Your calcium should not grow now that you are VLC or keto since the plaques are not like tumors which are self replicating/feeding. They exist to repair damage and you are no longer damaging your arteries. Remember it isnā€™t the score but the change over time thatā€™s most important. Test next year and if itā€™s stabilized you should be in good shape. Donā€™t let anxiousness create a stress fueled self fulfilling prophecy. :grin:

(Richard Morris) #13

Weā€™re in the early days of learning how to reverse the progression of calcification or if that even means anything. What we do know is the process that increases calcification increases the CV risk - the math on that is significant.

But what would it mean to reduce calcification? No-one knows, because not enough people have done it to be able to derive significant results.

Itā€™s entirely possible that someone who developed plaques to the point that they required calcified shoring will maintain their risk status, or even increase it if they reduce the calcification, or even if they reduce the plaques.

But some general ideas in no particular order. I suspect reducing the plaqueing will reduce CV risk AND calcification. I suspect dragging calcium out of your arteries but not reducing the plaques will increase the risk. I donā€™t know how to specifically reduce plaques, but I have a few ideas about the process that caused the plaques to be required to support foam cells full of cholesterol.

Insulin elevating increases the expression of receptors to capture oxidized LDL and transfer the contents into foam cells in the wall of your arteries. Insulin going low increases the ATP-binding cassette transporter used to efflux those contents out of your arterial wall into HDL.

SO we appear to need a regular swing of insulin from high to low. Many people who have high insulin for too long (ie: T2DMs) also have elevated risk of Cardio Vascular disease. That may the the cause. If your insulin canā€™t get low enough maybe you can only accumulate this detritus in your arterial wall.

I would be going hard core keto, getting carbs as low as possible - 50 may be low enough for your glucose levels to be controlled, but is it low enough for your insulin levels to get low enough?

(bryan vandyke) #14

Looks like one of the mechanism for HDL/RCT might be LXR (Liver X Receptors) which seem to directly influence ABCA1.

This Article seems to indicate ā€œnormalā€ levels of glucose up-regulate LXR but high levels of glucose suppress it.

LXR seems to be tied back to Insulin Sensitivity via GLUT4 , Atherosclerosis via ABCA1 , Fat Oxidation, Inflammation, Alzheimerā€™s disease, etc.
Some random review articles:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3493071/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941513/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC151157/

-Bryan

(Richard Morris) #15

Awesome ā€¦ Iā€™ll start looking in LXRs direction as well.

The role of Insulin on ABCA1 is described in the follow paper ā€¦

It certainly sounds like Insulin may just be one of the signals whereby high glucose keeps trash in our arterial wall.

(Dave Brooks) #16

This is a great comment that needs repeating! I have CS 770 and felt great, until almost instantly, I didnā€™t. I am told that my plaque fractured and that started a clotting chain reaction that became my acute problem. I had been moving toward lower carb for years by that point and reduced my inflammatory foods considerably, so imagine my surprise. While many of my standard markers were in a good place, now I know, that my fasting insulin was high and I never really dropped any significant weight. As I look back, I feel like I increased my K2 intake while not actually correcting the underlying problem. IMO, correcting the problem (plaque) is the priority 1, and reducing the bodies protection from the problem (the calcium) should come naturally.

Iā€™ve heard many times that the presence of calcium is not the problem, it is what your body is doing to protect you from the foam cell buildup (the problem). IMO, Iā€™m focusing on removing the inflammation (the problem) and letting my body decide when to remove the calcium (the protection).

(Ellie Baum) #17

That guy is helping so many of us. And we def need it!

#18

I am interested in any research info anyone can point to on calcium deposits. I have been low carb low sugar no grains high fat for over a year but not in Keto for that time. I am now Keto for three months. Second week of Keto I had CT scan for calcium deposits and came back at a very high 1600 score (yes 1600 not 160!) cardiologist is freaking out at Keto and I have rejected statins for 8 years as I took them once and wiped my memory! Now he wants the monthly injection to reduce cholesterol. I had an MRI for my heart at the same time and it was absolutely fine. My LDL reduced from 139 to 119 in four weeks after starting Keto and my HDL is 63 and tryglycerides 83 AC1 5.2. Naturapath put me on D3 and K2 and bi-weekly glutathione IV injections. I am 63 years young!
My concern is how unstable can the calcium deposits become while doing your best to clear them out. Should you stop dairy on Keto? I take heavy whipping cream in bulletproof coffee along with XCT oil and eat a moderate amount of sharp English cheddar cheese and European cheeses also mozzarella and cream cheese in Keto bagels. I have been on Keto since mid February and lost 10 lbs - very slow as I am insulin resistant and hypothyroid.

(Danny Evatt) #19

Ellie808 - Iā€™m new to this forum so apologies if I say/repeat anything within this informative site :slight_smile:

Iā€™m 60 years young and just had a Calcium scan (my 4th over 10 years) and it was 1032. I have been able to slow the growth down to 10% per year from 15-20%.

First, donā€™t panic. Calcium is the result of healing like a scab or scar. I have read many reports that actually suggest calcium is more stable and stronger than actual plaque. There is also NO evidence (despite some unsubstantiated claims) that calcium can ever be REMOVED from arteries. Once itā€™s there, itā€™s there. The only thing to do is slow or stop its growth.

With that said, I would suggest you take a C-reactive protein test as soon as possible. This simple test will show if your body has any inflammation - a precursor to CVD and other diseases. Also go ahead and take a full blood panel like the one above.

If the blood panel is ok (other than cholesterol) and your C-reactive protein is low, or very low as in my case, then consider yourself one of the ā€œodditiesā€ of the medical world. You are healthy, exercise, eat well and have no or little inflammation, yet your body is depositing calcium in your arteries. Though I donā€™t know about you, but I do have ā€œhighā€ cholesterol of around 270-300. Hmmmā€¦

Hundreds of years ago, medical science thought we got sick by our four humors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism Today, the current simple idea is high cholesterol (combined score of over 200) causes plaque. This, in turn, causes your body to ā€œcoverā€ or repair the plaque with calcium (resulting in high calcium scores). Hence lower the cholesterol (through Statins or extreme injections as in your case), and that will make all the plaque go away - and supposedly the calcium with it. This is what the AMA and the American Heart Association says is fact - much like the four humors many years ago.

(Side note - take a look at the American Heart Association website here http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/Cholesterol_UCM_001089_SubHomePage.jsp Notice who the sponsors are? They are the RX companies that makeā€¦ statins. )

New research however, is showing that the high cholesterol = CVD theory may not be entirely correct (or correct at all). Studies are indicating that inflammation (causes below) are possibly the main causes (or the ā€œmarkersā€) for CVD, certain cancers, diabetes, and other maladies.

Causes of inflammation are poor diet (the subject of this website), obesity, SUGAR, lack of exercise, smoking, drug and alcohol use and high mental stress. As a matter of fact, (though not widely reported) we can control 80-90% of the risk factors of possible heart disease. And this is without the use of Statins or RX.

With all that said, back to your question. Unfortunately, there is little or no medical research going on into why/how calcium is deposited into arteries. Almost all medical research being done today is centered around drugs (with most medical research now funded by drug companies) and treating disease - not cures or CVD causality.

Personally, I simply try to stay healthy, eat correctly (Keto if you like), exercise, keep stress low, no smoking, drugs or alcohol. I take a c-reactive protein test (and a simple blood screening and urine test) every 6 months (offered at Any Lab Test Now!). I also check my own blood pressure (always ok) and heart beats per minute (fitbit). I take no drugs other than these supplements (Vit C powder, L-Arginine, L-Citrulline, Vit K) and get plenty of sunshine (natural Vit D). And lastly, I avoid doctors and hospitals like the plague.

Hope this has been helpful to you and any other readers! :slight_smile:

ā€œDoctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing.ā€ Voltaire

(zee) #20

Hi devatt,

You said u are taking supplements. Can u please provide the names of the brands of supplements with links to purchase so others can follow along with your success?