Autophagy and Protein Restriction


(IDM Educator) #21

The autophagy definitely does recycle loose skin. Dr. Fung has fasted thousands of people, some of them were severely obese and even if losing a hundred plus pounds there is no issue with loose skin. For myself? The .6 per kilogram of body weight number that Dr. Fung believes in for protein is working for me to build lean mass and I don’t have excess skin. Most of my weight I lost the first two years ketogenic before I started fasting. But I did lose the weight very slowly and everybody is different. I was eating almost twice the protein my first two years ketogenic! All I know is I’ve had booked end dexa scans since lowering my protein to Dr. Fung’s recommendation and I’m still able to build an awesome amount of lean mass. I lift very heavy whether fasting or not.
Does this answer your question?

(Robert C) #22

Just to be transparent (sorry if this is invasive - please ignore if you’d like) but, I think everyone is assuming you are steroid-free and that your gains are from driving HGH higher naturally (with fasting) as well as your very heavy lifting (hoping that is the case as I want to replicate at a lower pace).

(Jane) #23

[quote=“Brenda, post:21, topic:73905”]
The autophagy definitely does recycle loose skin.[/quote]

I agree as it has happened to me. I had loose skin from losing weight and once I started fasting for more than 3 days it started to tighten up and my cellulite started disappearing on the backs of my thighs.

I can’t see the backs of my legs but my husband notices :wink: Well, he’s smart enough to only comment when it improves :laughing:

He said it started above my knees and has been slowly working it’s way up. This last fast inched the smooth skin a few inches higher. Amazing to me - I’ve had the cellulite for decades and just turned 60 and now it’s disappearing???

(Jane) #24

My husband only does 36-hr fasts but he does them regularly and shoots for one day a week with no food.

He has built lean mass and muscles with minimal working out on his weight bench in the basement. He has always had low testosterone and his last bloodwork it was up in the normal range (I used to give him injections but stopped before we went keto) so the keto and fasting has made him healthier. His PSA was lower this year also - was in the normal range before but nice to see a drop.

(Ilana Rose) #25

May I ask your current protein in grams?

(IDM Educator) #26

You’re kidding right? Do you know anyone who’s takes steroids?

(IDM Educator) #27

All you need to know is that I eat .6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. I’ll be happy to tell you my lean mass. It’s 135 pounds. And I’m five foot seven. Unusual yes but I do lift heavy and have been fasting consistently for 3 years and ketogenic for five.

Calculating protein from lean mass
Jimmy Moore goes carnivore, eats much higher protein
(IDM Educator) #28

I have built lean mass with heavy lifting and obviously with my consistent intermittent fasting.

Before I go on, let me define intermittent fasting. This doesn’t mean 18/6 or 16/8 (this isn’t technically intermittent fasting, it is meal timing and/or time restricted eating by definition). Intermittent means fasting for periods of time for entire days and being ketogenic on the days I’m not fasting. And yes I lift very heavy covering all muscle groups although the free weight leg press is my favorite as I am exceptional at it. My top lift is 810 I’m shooting for 900 this year.

(Robert C) #29

I thought Megan said you might be timing your workouts to coincide with your (presumed) highest HGH levels, like heaviest workouts (maybe with a refeed) just after finishing a 5-day (she was emphasizing your great progress - 810 is great!). Ben Greenfield talked this up in a podcast a while ago. Is scheduling to maximize HGH about right or are you a consistent Mon / Wed / Fri (for example) lifter, regardless of fasting schedule? Enquiring minds want to know!

(Ilana Rose) #30

Here is my concern with applying the same percentage as someone actively shrinking a large fat mass.

I’ve heard Jason Fung on this topic and a part of his explanation for the low protein value that he gave was that people who were losing a lot of fat would be actively reducing the protein structures that support that fat and that this protein could then be reused in building muscle and other protein requirements.

Based on this explanation, the slower you are reducing your fat mass, the less the actual percentage of your body mass of protein is actually available to your body if you’re keeping the percentage from food constant.

Thus, someone like me who’s at maintenance, would have far less protein available as a percentage of their body weight than someone who is rapidly diminishing a large fat mass.

(Carl Keller) #31

I prefer the per kilo of body weight vs lean mass. While I can figure out my lean mass, the average person that just signed up to the forum may struggle. Body weight simplifies things.

(IDM Educator) #32

and Jason is all about simplifying things to help the most people possible

(Ilana Rose) #33

I prefer the per kilo of body weight vs lean mass.

I agree with this but that results in a problem with using the values of the two keto dudes of 1-1.5 g/kg. It would be very wrong to use those values without the qualifier “of lean body mass” for someone with 40% body fat. They may never be able to tap their fat stores no matter how low they drop their carbs.

(Carl Keller) #34

If someone weighs 100 kg then Fung would tell them to eat 100x.6 = 60 grams of protein per day.

If that same person has 40% fat and uses 2KD’s recommendation of 1-1.5g per lean mass, they are supposed to eat between 60x1 to 60x1.5 or 60-90 grams protein per day.

30 grams is barely more than 4 ounces of cooked meat and only about 120 calories. That that doesn’t seem such a drastic difference to me but it would appear that using Fung’s total weight @.6g per kg is a bit more strict than using 2KD’s lean mass @1-1.5g per kg.

(Ilana Rose) #35

That was my point. I was saying that if we want to simplify the message then we don’t want to use the values 1-1.5 of total weight. Fung’s value is better in that respect. Otherwise we’d be recommending far too much. But we tend to use 1-1.5 g of lean mass because this is the 2ketodudes forum and that is their recommendation.

(Carl Keller) #36

Ummm I don’t honestly feel like we have to agree with everything 2KD’s say just because it’s their forum but I believe we should fully respect their opinion. Like @Brenda says, how much protein is very controversial in regards to the experts. I don’t feel like I’m disrespecting 2KD’s but letting people know that other options are being recommended.

(Ilana Rose) #37

That’s not what I was saying either. I was just trying to say that we DON’T want to recommend 1-1.5 g/kg of total weight.

Here was my original post:

I agree with this but that results in a problem with using the values of the two keto dudes of 1-1.5 g/kg. It would be very wrong to use those values without the qualifier “of lean body mass” for someone with 40% body fat.

(Carl Keller) #38

Oh I am sorry Ilana, I totally misread that. Just ignore me. :blush:

(Ilana Rose) #39

Np… I misread thing all the time. :see_no_evil:

I’m glad we got it sorted. :blush:


Yes, thanks Brenda! I understand now why large amounts of dietary protein aren’t needed during keto/fasting.

It also supports my own natural tendency to eat small amount of protein. Previously, when I believed that large amounts were required I would almost become physically sick after a few ounces. That could explain why LC never really worked for me. I hadn’t discovered keto/fasting yet.

Thanks for your help. I wish I could do Dr. Fung’s program at his clinic but don’t have the finances right now.