Calculating protein from lean mass

(mole person) #11

It varies a lot with how much muscle mass you have. It might be dangerous for an unmuscular woman to be sub 16% body fat but that’s just fine in an athlete. The reason for this is because the muscular woman with the same exact number of POUNDS of fat is FAR heavier because she has many more pounds of muscle. So even though the amount of fat she is carrying is identical her percentage of body fat is far lower.

Let me put this a different way:

Two women are both carrying 30 lbs of body fat. The first has very little muscle and a total body weight of 100 lbs, her % of body fat is 30%. The second woman is VERY muscular and has a total body weight of 187 lbs. The first woman is at 30% body fat and the second is at 16%, but they have identical fat stores to draw on for energy needs.

(Robert C) #12

Hi @anon13588705,

If you put an @ sign in front of people’s names (such as @RobC and @Ilana_Rose) then a notification is sent and people can read your “Thank you” (which is appreciated!).

Otherwise, it is just by accident that one finds a post mentioning themselves.

(Robert C) #13

Not sure but, I think this is someone’s idea of a theoretical maximum - if you treat it that way then you should reduce by some percentage depending on your lifestyle (good or bad sleep, stress levels, exercise levels, current injuries etc.).

I wonder if it is really a true theoretical maximum. Seems like keto 100 mile marathoners are going to pull more than that in their (very long) day of constant running - maybe there is an assumed maximum amount of exercise? Would be good to know the backstory to compare.

(mole person) #14

I’ve often wondered the same. I don’t entirely trust that the studies these values were derived from have the utility for which we are applying it. But this was the formula the OP was asking for so I provided the answer.

(mole person) #15

Actually the more I think about it the more I think it has got to be problematic. Take me as an example. I’m 110 lbs and less than 18% body fat. That means I have 20 lbs of fat of which only 31.5 calories can be taken out of each per day. So a total maximum of 630 calories a day?? After which I’m tapping protein structures for energy?? How can this be right? A two hour jog would have me past this. Further, I OMAD nearly every day. How am I not passing this maximum every single day between my meals?

Am I making some major logical error in my thinking?

(Robert C) #16

I don’t see a logical error - I didn’t believe the formula from day one - due to the ultra-marathon example.

That is why I think it is actually based on something more average - a mostly sedentary person (certainly not one that runs two hours a day). Maybe it is based only on someone at BMR all day (a baseline instead of a maximum). Your numbers look that way - if you really just laid around all day - maybe 630 calories of fat get burned off (if coincidentally fasting)?

Even being fat-adapted would come in to play here. A person that is not fat-adapted would have a calorie max extraction limit per pound of body fat that would be less than themselves if fat-adapted - simply because their hormones would not allow it.

(mole person) #17

I’m going to read the study this is based on tomorrow and see what sense I can make of this. I’ll link you if I find it.

#18

Thanks @RobC, Got it! :smile:

#19

In terms of my own metabolism, I am metabolically deranged due to years of misdirection medically with diabetes. I used to be a TOFI, was slim for most of my life til insulin resistance and didn’t get accurate info to stop becoming diabetic, despite or because of seeing the supposed top experts in the country (Oz)…tried hard, followed directions to the letter but was misdirected by dietitians in hospital metabolic units telling me to eat whole grains and fruit, low glycaemic index foods.
But I am on track with keto carnivore rigidly adhering to guidelines…doing strength training (2x weekly on Keiser machines with an exercise physiologist keeping me on track, rowing etc and with a 10 bicycle with full-on spurts of 10 secs once a minute. Hoping that may kick me back under the insulin resistance level along with rigid keto.
So the calculation for me is about trying to hit the maximum benefit of the fasting and the training.

I am caring for a very ill 93 yo recent above-knee amputation mum …which is incredibly motivating for me in trying to avoid future for-sure amputation for myself… currently taking time away from her care for exercise (with nurses standing in for me).
I am wanting to take any possible advantage from calculations I can, I am definitely an eat-to-live person. :blush:

#20

Thanks @Ilana_Rose, looking forward to this.

I am really rather confused about the numbers to use for myself. I will use cronometer to try and get my protein intake right.
Appreciated the Amy Berger personal fat threshold explanation. Will need to listen to it a few more times…got lost with it.

I am pretty massively stressed at present and it is affecting my concentration.

(mole person) #21

Don’t be stressed. This doesn’t have to be complicated. There are lots of people here with lots of experience that can help with pretty much any problem or concern you have from sorting out macros, to getting over stalls when they happen, right down to meal ideas and even recipes!

Why don’t you tell us a bit more about yourself. How long have you been on keto? What have you been doing so far?

If you are just starting then it’s pretty simple. Just keep your carbs below 20 net grams, eat a decent but not excessive amount of protein. Sixty grams sounds about right but you don’t have to worry too much about an exact hit every day. It’s alright to be a bit over some days and a bit under others. And fill up the rest of your hunger with fat. Try to have fat in every meal so you remain satiated. But you don’t need to try and hit your fat macro if you aren’t hungry for more.

That’s it really, overall. The main thing is keep carbs low and learn this way of eating at the beginning. Do that for at least six weeks and get fat adapted. After that you can look at dialing in on macros if you aren’t losing much fat yet. But the first six weeks really shouldn’t be so much about losing fat as allowing your body to adapt to a new way of eating. For many people this will mean eating a bit more at first. That’s ok, your body is adapting. Just keep the carbs very low and use fat to fill you up when you get hungry and you will do great.

If at any point you have ANY questions or concerns, just post here. There is a ton of experience over a huge range of issues related to this way of eating.

I’m very sorry that the nutritional orthodoxy has let you down so badly but do not stress. You can heal on this diet and if you stay with it you needn’t fear amputation or other complications of diabetes.

(mole person) #22

Here is the study.

A LIMIT ON THE ENERGY TRANSFER RATE FROM THE HUMAN FAT STORE IN HYPOPHAGIA – ALPERT (2005)

file:///C:/Users/pc/Downloads/For%20Zen.pdf

There are several points which make it clear to me that the value of 31.5 calories per pound may be massively inaccurate for people on a ketogenic diet.

First of all the data used in the model they developed is taken from the Minisota starvation experiment. This was a population of fit young men placed into semi-starvation for 24 weeks such that they lost about 2/3 of their fat mass in that time. They were being fed a diet meant to approximate the diet in wartime Europe at the time of potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, bread, and macaroni. The diet was so severe that the participants reported all sorts of psychological and physiological problems during that time.

Second there were only two measurements other that the original baseline of the fat mass of the participants, one at 12 weeks and one at 24. This seems problematic to me for extrapolating to a population that is not stressed by starvation. By 12 weeks the participants had already loss HALF their fat mass, and these were originally fit men, so they did not have huge body fat stores.

Finally the authors themselves say quite correctly that:

We do not know the individual variability of the maximum transfer factor or whether or not it can be applied to other populations under different conditions.

Honestly, I see no reason to assume that it can. Fat transfer rates might be very, very different when the body is not stressed by a need for it’s own calorie stores while under a high insulin load.

(Chris) #23

I think that PDF is still on your hard drive… :slight_smile:

(Robert C) #24

Thanks for the nail in the coffin on the 31.5 calories per pound body fat maximal extraction rate theory (in my mind anyway).

Not only is it inaccurate for keto, it seems like it would be wildly inaccurate for very active keto people (you, 100 mile runners, CrossFit athletes etc.).

As well, now we know that low calorie intake is what causes metabolic problems (and I guess the potential for the body to try to conserve fat) vs. 0 calorie intake, which causes positive fasting adaptations. So, taking a bunch of people, breaking their metabolisms and then inferring maximal rates of fat utilization (or calories burned or body temperature or heart rate … ) seems like it would produce pretty useless information (i.e. I do not care how my broken metabolism works).

I would love to see a study on maximal body fat usage on 2 groups of keto people - both keto (per 2KD) but one sedentary and one with a fairly aggressive workout plan. Many people seem to do fine on keto and are sedentary but I wonder if exercise accelerates fat loss or accelerates fat loss but leads to a higher or lower plateau or confounds fat loss because 100 calories spent running gives you a desire to eat 200 calories of food.

Anyway - thanks for the explanation of the contents and (as @Dread1840 pointed out) the file is not accessible.

(mole person) #25

Lol… I’m an idiot. I thought I’d copied the link correctly. I’ll try again.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/attachments/for-zen-pdf.15733/&ved=2ahUKEwiYs_CFgongAhVYHDQIHcEUBzoQFjACegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0GnU2SKzdSBQqU-IBbIUSE

(mole person) #26

To my mind too. I’ve always been a bit suspicious of it, but applying it yesterday to myself (thanks to that questioning post of yours), made me nearly certain that it had to be broken.

#27

@richard
No, I am not calorie counting just trying to calculate the optimum nutritionally I can get from the least insulinogenic foods in between intensive fasting, to continue reversing diabetes and insulin resistance and to avoid cancer progressing. Had surgery a week ago and don’t have pathology tests back but am quite motivated (by fear) to get specific about my diet following the general anaesthetic and enthusiastic attention of the surgeon.
Because the calculations for best protein numbers vary so widely I am attempting to nail down anything I can.
It is seeming impossible. I have been carnivore (between fasts) for ages now and would like to start eating fewer grams of protein if I can ever figure out how few is not too few.
It seems like an impossible task to locate anything conclusive since all the experts’ numbers for fat and protein differ so much.
I’m currently confused by how to integrate Valter Longo’s information in The Longevity Diet regarding animal protein and fats being in such variance with the standard keto info re saturated fat, meat etc. since I am eating carnivore exclusively.

(Robert C) #28

@Brenda’s posts (linked below - there are several more in that thread) show that you might want to pick 0.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight as a minimum. She also does EFs and was at that 0.6 level while being able to add lots of lean body mass.

#29

Thank you kindly @RobC.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #30

By the way guys,

At the introduction of the 2ketoDudes podcast, Carl Franklin does indeed state that he eats protein at the rate of one to one and a half grams per kilogram of lean body mass.