As a Grandfather my daughter is worrying me


(Nigel Basson) #1

Hi,

Over the last month or two my eldest daughter, who has two boys 6 and 4, is slowly but surely being persuaded that a vegan lifestyle is the way to go and that carbs and sugar are not a problem and meat is bad, very bad.

I’ve been following research for years which contradicts this but her latest effort to convince me otherwise is this video link she sent me today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og62hbNl794&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR0-du_cRemaZri2cy2qt3lacdOV6gOYYXGjIFmV5S5hIjzQ_F2Rj_KVke0

I find it disturbing to say the least but would appreciate some help. To me a low carb diet is logical and makes sense for our overall health but I don’t quite know what to do to level the playing field as a vegan lifestyle for my two very young Grandchildren literally frightens the hell out of me.

I would very much appreciate some guidance from the experts I know we have in this forum.

Cheers
Nigel


#2

Hi Nigel. Your concern is noted.

The “What the Health” documentary you correctly identify as an anti-meat vegan ethical agenda film. As such, it is not the best source for human nutrition information.

A vegan lifestyle for 18 months may be healthier than the standard dietary advice. After that there is the real risk of nutrient deficiency illnesses.

The approach can be really nuanced as a well formulated vegan vegetarian diet is a successful healthy way of eating for some people.

Here is a first level search for expert advice using these forums:
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/search?q=%E2%80%9CWhat%20the%20health%E2%80%9D%20documentary%20

https://robbwolf.com/2017/07/03/what-the-health-a-wolfs-eye-review/

Given the weak-to-non existent data presented in the film, the latter seems to be a pretty good possibility. In fact, WTH, based on zero sound science, is quite likely a piece of animal-welfare advocacy masquerading as a public health film. (Teicholz, N. (2017))


Sugar not bad for you, Carbs don’t make you fat
(Nigel Basson) #3

Thanks very much and appreciated.


#4

It’s a tricky situation to bridge. One mental kung fu thing I do when I learn that someone is vegan or interested in veganism - is first validate them by proclaiming that a well-balanced veganism can be an excellent temporary detox for 12+ months! (which is true as far as various kinds of medication detoxes and gut imbalances) - which disarms folks. Then I delicately mention the longer term views and ancestral/primal/crosscultural realities of high fat/ low-carb and animal-based, along with plentiful fasting for adults. And try to point out that vegansim can be quite anti-Indigenous & Aboriginal - and express concern about cultural biases. Then, I quickly go about changing the subject towards things we DO or COULD have in common - favorite cuisines/spices, a mutual love of Guacamole, esp homemade, (which has really helped me and old dear friend who became vegan about 10 years ago), etc.

As far as the children go - yes it’s very concerning - as I have known a number of unwell vegan & non protein-balanced vegetarian kids from birth who tend to have soft bones and weak immune systems along with developing symptoms of autism/learning disabilities. It can be a very delicate and difficult thing to keep the communication channels open because food is so emotional and cultural - and to not be able to share food is a challenge.

Hopefully for the time being you can focus on the foods you CAN share, at least. Maybe you can surprise your daughter with a savory nut roast (baked w/ ketchup and herbs in it, makes the house smell as good as baking a meatloaf) to show your willingness to flex/co-exist/nourish while still unapologetically being yourself and adding your actual bacon-covered meatloaf to your plate too (which the grandkids will admire of course).

I agree with Professor Mary Fewtrell the chairwoman of the European Society for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Nutrition (quoted in the below article) who’s warned parents that getting a vegan diet wrong can cause “irreversible cognitive damage and, in the extreme death.” I’d go further and say you can’t get a vegan diet right for the long term, ever, if you want strong bones and neurological health - but no vegan parent wants to hear that as they become believers in the vegan mythology pretty quick.

I thought the below article - with a catchy title to attract vegan readers and then surprise them with inconvenient facts - was REALLY well done as a serious public health effort to educate on very real things while keeping vegans engaged in the article. It’s main message is that parents can’t be vegan 100% of the time. It succeeds in bringing attention to some compelling child health topics that aren’t understood by vegan parents. It also does other parenting education on different ways to be a vegan parent - such as not forcing children to be vegetarian or vegan, creating harmonious social/.food-sharing relationships, and on gentle approaches to explaining veganism to children in ways that aren’t isolationist in judging the rest of the world as horrible and impure, etc.

As a grandparent, you can be yourself unapologetically and accept your daughter as herself - as a way to keep dialogue going. The grandchildren - kids being super-smart about the emotional truth among adults - will perceive that open heartedness and care, regardless of if they’re eating tofu dogs, and you bet they’ll value your eating lifestyle and want to have what you’re having at some point - and hopefully your daughter will value sharing over her personal dietary preferences etc.


(Nigel Basson) #5

Excellent Mary, thank you so much.


(Troy) #6

Yes.
And when the executive producer is the latest " Joker "
Good Actor imho

Joke is on them
Just sayin

Go figure🤣


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #7

@NigelNoFriends There are two concerns here: the first is that growing children need plenty of protein in order to grow properly. I understand that it is possible, if difficult, to get plenty of protein on a vegan diet, but a regular vegetarian diet supplemented with fish and eggs would be better. (A chicken lays eggs most of her life, regardless of whether any are ever fertilized or not. Commercially sold eggs are unfertilized, so there is no question of taking a life, here.)

The other issue is getting enough of the right kind of fat. The brain is mostly fat, and a high percentage of that fat is cholesterol. Plant sterols cannot substitute for cholesterol, which is an animal fat. Cholesterol is essential for the formation of cell walls (this is true of every cell in the body), it is the precursor for important hormones, including testosterone and progesterone, and it is the precursor of vitamin D and many other important chemicals used in the body. Cholesterol also plays a role in the immune system. But the main reason lack of cholesterol affects the brain is that it is essential to the formation of the myelin sheath of neurons, and it plays a role in the transmission of nerve impulses.

The Seventh-Day Adventist reasons for avoiding meat and eating only vegetables are based on the idea that men who eat meat become lustful and sexually out-of-control. I suspect Ellen White may have had some unpleasant experiences as a girl, from which she drew the wrong conclusions. Her position also echoes the neo-Platonist strain that runs through Christian theology (i.e., spirit good, body bad) and ignores the mainstream of Judaeo-Christian thinking (God created the material world and called it good).

The moral argument that eating meat involves the taking of life ignores the killing of the many small mammals whose homes are destroyed when land is tilled. That mono-cropping is an ecological disaster is also well-known, and the soil depletion from cropping requires the use of fertilizer made from fossil fuels, which needs to be considered in the carbon footprint of growing crops.

The inhumanity of the current industrial meat-production practices is undeniable. We definitely need to reform our methods. Along these lines, Alan Savory and Peter Ballerstedt have some very useful points to make. But I see no moral wrong, as long as we treat our animals humanely. We can’t escape the reality that all life lives off other life, but we can at least treat our animal’s sacrifice reverently and with respect.


(Susan) #8

Show her these articles:

Maybe this will smarten her up.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #9

Vege/vegan is a religion not science and evidence-based. At best it’s a pseudo-science cherry picking data that can be construed as supportive. Very difficult to reason someone out of an irrational view.


#10

You’re very welcome Nigel!


#11

Tell her she’s months late to fall for a very well known propaganda piece. There is NO shortage of videos also on YT from former vegans and all their health issues. Honestly, if I were in your shoes I’d wage war with her if she tried to veganize the kids. I’m kinda the extreme out of the gate type though, hopefully your more level headed than me.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #12

Michael, you are spot on !

It doesn’t even matter that veganism is freaking retarded. People are going to believe whatever they want to.


(Ken) #13

The website Beyondveg.com has lot’s of refutation information about veganism, written by former vegans.


(David Jackson) #15

Someone has to produce things. It takes money to make films. This includes documentaries. The roles a person has worn on film bears little weight when filming a different endeavor.

Choose not to endorse the doc. This is fine. But dismissing it for that alone is rather shallow


#16

Well, being that many homes (and preschools) across the land serve koolaid and sodas (incl in bottles and sippy cups) along with sugar/starch snacks, and heavily processed foods - along with a constant diet of corporate created media & marketing (Neil Postman’s 1983 book The Disappearance Of Childhood predicted that expertly) - if we want to talk about “protecting” children, vegans are one group of many.

SAD industrial culture is really sad… fragmented, cut off from ancestral traditions, and full of cognitive dissonance. And while many parents are doing the best they can to nourish their children, there are some very real cultural, religious, and economic differences along with structured ignorance.

There may well be some vegan kids w/ nutritional supplements and abundant coconut oil who like their family foods and have better brain health than some other kids who are routinely already protein-deficient with less fat and with PUFAs and sugar everywhere.

There was a baby in the U.S. headlines last year or the year before whose mother weaned it at 7 or so months onto a hyper-limited “pure” “forest” diet of berries and soaked nuts - and it died of course (as to why she weaned her child onto that, and why she didn’t utilize milk banks or high grade goat milk formula powders to supplement the nuts n’ berries I don’t know).

I’ve known dairy protein-rich vegetarian Indian children who are much more healthy and functional than the average junk food American child, etc. Many vegans eat a TON of processed junk foods - including tofu and soy milk and modern wheat breads. Processed soy often starts with infant formula then is followed in veg/vegan cuisines with tofu and soymilk (unlike tempeh, which is marinated whole bean ) should have a warning label for human consumption due to its enzymatic indigestability for many non North Asians, and also due to its super high phytoestrogens which many children have serious issues with come puberty.

Another part of this topic is the natural tastes of children. Till about age 7 or older, children love the sweeter spices/tastes and hate the spicy/pungent. It’s normal for them to really enjoy fresh fruit and almond or dairy milk, and sweet coconut oil. But even vegan kids reach a point where they want the saltier and spicier, and even the best marinated tempeh can’t match their first taste of good BBQ meat or bacon.

Ideally children would have a range of foods to choose/reject at a meal - including good fats and proteins - and what GRANDPA’s eating and what AUNTIE’s eating, etc etc. A wide variety of tastes and brain development. The problem with certain eating religions or economic circumstances is that range is reduced to “here’s your bologna or velveeta sandwich on white bread” or “here’s your tofu dog on white bread” or “here have some sugary “healthy” gummy bears”.

The lack of actual real foods is a rampant problem throughout the industrial world. Many children’s palates are messed up young by processed foods and constant eating/drinking - and they can’t take pleasure in real foods. Jason Fung MD goes into this in his interview on High Intensity Health when talking about “western” industrial societal injustices and entrainment - how horrified he was when he saw how his son’s preschool was feeding them every two hours and learned it was the licensing law, and that sugar-burning kids are accustomed to it, need it in order to not crash too bad, etc.


(Troy) #17

I agree
Noted
Sarcasm was heavily intended ( w The Joaquin Phoenix connection )
Not dismissing the doc at all

Great actor like I said, looking forward to the movie!:slightly_smiling_face:


(hottie turned hag) #18

Some folks thrive on a vegan diet. Some fare poorly.

NO ONE DIET IS RIGHT FOR ALL
and those who claim the opposite are usually layfolk, or have an agenda, or both.

I state this confidently from a place of having a master’s and near 30yr experience in a med sci field: absolutes do not exist in medicine nor dietary requirements. EVERYTHING is case by case. EVERYthing.

I can also cite an anecdotal example, one of my adult kids. A daughter about to turn 36. LIFELONG (never had meat. Never.) vegetarian, over 7 yr vegan. Had three pregnancies and extended lactations in those 7 almost 8, now, years. Kids all born full term big brutes, 2 were home delivered after short efficient labors. My daughter looks like a fitness model, not joking. Lean, toned, muscular, taut. Does not work out. Energy galore, zero health issues. Her husband is an NP. He DOES work out (weightlifts) and was worried going veg would hurt his workouts. Nope. He’s as built as ever.

Kids and hubby are vegetarian but kids are pretty close to vegan.

Youngest kid is a suckling infant but the 5y/o and 3y/o are excellent specimens: muscular, big for ages, almost never contract communicable illnesses.

Now me? I was vegetarian for 8 yr (animal advocacy reasons) and felt like something helped from her coffin and was thin and listless.

I am certain my daughter is not a freak of nature; there are similar cases, many I am sure.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #19

Great article based on the work of Weston Price DDS.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #20

I’m sorry, but this just does not sound likely to me. I can hardly remember seeing a Vegatarian or Vegan, who I aspired to be built like.

On the other hand, I’ve seen a ton of buff meat eating gorillas that I so wish I had the genetics, and life circumstances to be like… Okay granted, most of them are completely juiced out too. But it takes a lot more than juice… Pretty much all those guys are big time meat eaters. I don’t think it’s just coincidence.


#21

There are vegan bodybuilder dudes, but they don’t proclaim they’re “all natural” and I suspect they are supplementing with steroidals and/or testosterone on top of the, like, 15 different other lab-produced supplements they have to take in order to be a healthy vegan (and how “natural” can that be?).

Then there’s the RAW vegan bodybuilders, who nowadays have a tendency to pose in their underwear which I find tacky - and also take a TON of supplements.

http://www.thefruitdoctor.com/mark-martell-raw-vegan-bodybuilder-yet-another-amazing-transformation/

Martell seems natural - not hyper-bulked. But fact is that there isn’t much of a hyper-bulked type “Natural Vegan” bodybuilder trend - they’re just hyper-bulked liars saying they’re natural imho. …Points to the hidden extravaganza of likely steroidal supplementation/hormone prescriptions under lots of different names, sold in many forms etc.