Are you changing your long term fasting length after listening to the Phinney interview?

(PJ) #21

Adipose cells vary a little depending on type, but last I read, their official life span is eight years. However, the life span of the content within them has a half-life of two years. So there is more to the question than merely the overall cell.

I consider fasting studies the only comparison for actual fasting. One thing that the research does seem like it makes clear is that there is a difference between under-eating (resulting in making one a ‘competitive eater’ and ‘competitive survivor on minimal calories by reducing metabolism’) and not-eating (resulting in making one a ‘competitive hunter’ and ‘competitive survivor on no calories by increasing metabolism so you can hunt for more, or you’re screwed’).

So for example, while the results of Keyes’ studies on this are fascinating, I consider it an excellent example of what happens when people are anorexic or diet (in today’s world) – not a good comparison for people who do short term fasting.

PJ

(PJ) #22

Here are a couple of PDFs (just for locals) some may find interesting on the topic.

A summary ~15 years ago from Cahill

Physiological adaptation to prolonged starvation - refs Cahill, has neat visuals :slight_smile:

297122878-Fuel-Metabolism-in-Starvation.pdf (536.6 KB)
derangedphysiology.com-Physiological adaptation to prolonged starvation.pdf (873.3 KB)

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

True, and even Phinney doesn’t really disapprove of a fast that lasts only two or three days. And remember, past 2-3 days, even Fung wants you to have medical supervision.

(Haleigh S) #24

Autophagy is a hugely beneficial process, overall, although there is at least one study I’m aware of that shows the opposite That may be the one that Dr. Phinney referred to.

It is the process by which the body gathers up old cells/sick or dying cells/misfolded proteins, and recycles them through a process of “self-eating” (the literal root translation for autophagy).

Autophagy begins at approximately 20 hours fasting and the benefits last until ~120 hours, at which point the chart shows a steep decline in benefit. The body uses the fuel gathered from this process to begin regenerating stem cells throughout the body as soon as the fast is broken.

Intestinal stem cells are targeted around 24 hours, and the immune system stem cells around 72 hours, from what I’ve researched. Check out Valter Longo’s studies, as well as the studies that were done as a result of his work.

There is a cumulative effect from these extended water fasts, and while they shouldn’t be overdone, properly spaced water fasts over a period of time, with appropriate nutrition in between, have been proven to have some incredible health effects in addition to weight loss, including repair of muscle and bone, tumor reduction or death and the cure of long term chronic illnesses.

(Henrietta Tubbola) #25

A quote from Dr Jason Fung:

During fasting, there is a period of time where protein is being catabolized (broken down) to burn for energy. This is not a bad thing. In this case, it is very good. Obese individuals have an estimated 20-50% more protein than lean people. This is all extra tissue that needs to be removed. In the IDM program, we’ve had people lose hundreds of pounds, just like Robert, and we’ve never referred anybody for skin removal surgery.

Maybe the loss of non-fat tissue is another benefit of fasting?

(Windmill Tilter) #26

Frequent extended fasting is so poorly understood that nobody can do anything other than speculate as to what happens to the human body as a result (apart from fat loss). Both the cheerleaders and the alarmists don’t have much to work with other than studies of individuals fasting for the first time, which aren’t really applicable.

We barely understand autophagy. On top of that, a*All extended fasting research to date has been conducted on subjects fasting for the first time.** No research has ever been conducted on a subjects performing extended fasting for the second time, much less the twentieth time. No one knows what metabolic adaptations occur. No one know how autophagy changes in response to repeated extended fasting.

You may surmise from the facts above the repeated extended fasting is safe and uniformly positive. Bless your heart.

The one person with the most data on how repeated extended fasting affects metabolism is Dr. Fung. He used the term Resting Metabolic Rate (RMR) 100+ times in the obesity code. Have you ever seen Fung’s data on how repeated extended fasting affects the RMR’s of his clinic clients? Neither have I. He does tell us perform 72hr fasts no more than 4 times per month; probably smart to listen to that one.

That said, I did a few dozen 84hr fasts last year. This year I’ll be doing a similar number of 60 hour fasts. I have a measurable metabolic adaptation from this. My RMR drops precipitously (250kcal/day) as exogenous calories are exhausted and my body switches over to lipolysis. It’s unlike anything ever recorded in the literature on subjects fasting for the first time. I know this because I own an indirect calorimeter that allows me to test my RMR daily. I’m not the only one; there is another forum member who does frequent extended fasts, who measures RMR daily, and whose RMR drops 500kcal/day on the first day of each extended fast he performs (that’s a staggering drop). I have no idea if this adaptation is benign. I have no idea what other adaptations are occurring. No one does. I’m ok with the risks.

Phinney isn’t necessarily wrong, nor is Dr. Fung. The former has no evidence to work with, the latter has never published evidence that it’s safe.

(Karim Wassef) #27

The recovery phase of an extended fast is just as critical as the fast itself. Everything the body actually needs is quickly rebuilt and with younger healthier cells.

(Traci ) #28

Does RMR return to normal after your fasts?

(Bunny) #29

I think Phinney is correct because there differences if you are sedentary or in the gym pumping iron or running on a treadmill all day long or even infrequently which would actually be 1 day of fasting would be equivalent to 3 days of fasting (in reality)?

So your actually speeding up time of the different phases and types of autophagy that takes place in the human body and hence the term cited by many experts “eat less move more.”

Autophagy is not restricted to people logical timing (how long does it takes the earth to complete one revolution or go around the sun) it is a internal biological clock and is dependent on nutrient intake timing windows, animation and suspended animation. It does not matter to your body that you waited three days to eat it, it is what you do in-between those eating windows or fasting states that matters?

Just like drinking water your body knows when It’s thirsty and thus the same with food, your body knows when to eat to break the fasted state (“breakfast?”) and too much dangerous levels of level of autophagy are taking place where protein sparing metabolism goes into a catabolic state? Which might preferential to burn up loose skin?

I can go for long stretches of time without eating because I’m not doing anything physical and shorter stretches when I just went into the garage and pumped some iron, I just speeded up my autophagy or internal biological fasting clock.

When we say the very word autophagy it is a break down and renewal process of catabolism and renewal of cells from stem cells and when we are in a state of animation; that speeds up the process of autophagy and when we are in a state of suspended animation we are in the process of rebuilding from new stem cells and catabolizing the old ones so time in days is not that significant?

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #30

I’ve just been re-reading the Jimmy Moore/Jason Fung “Complete Guide” to fasting, and that’s not the impression I’d got. (Maybe they say something different in podcasts or whatever).

From what I remember (and I only recently read it), they only suggest medical supervision for people with underlying health conditions. For people who are fundamentally healthy (other than being overweight), and who are not on any medication (especially diabetes medication), then I see no reason why they should not go ahead. There are plenty of warnings in the book about when you should stop, if things are not working out, or if there are warning signs.

In any case, no UK GP would ever supervise someone on an extended fast. If you suggested it, you’d be shown the door, and they’d certainly try to talk you out of it.
Maybe it’s different in the USA. I can’t even imagine what medical supervision would even look like, outside of a laboratory or hospital.

Anyway, I’m on day 15 of an extended fast, and I haven’t seen a doctor in years, and nor do I intend to. I’m feeling fine except for occasional hunger pangs and occasional slight nausea, usually sorted out with some warm water.

FWIW, I had plenty of fat to lose at the beginning. I have lost a good amount, but still have plenty to lose. I wouldn’t do an extended fast (not this extended , anyway) if I was, say, down at around BMI 22. At the moment, I can only dream of BMI 22.

I take the vitamins and mineral supplements I believe my body needs, good quality sea salt, and home made bone/meat & sometimes fish stock.

As people have said, I doubt if Dr Phinney ever works with people as overweight as I was, and still am.

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #31

What is it that is being charted? How is this benefit measured?

(Doug) #32

9+ months since Haleigh’s posted, Mike, so not sure if you’ll get a reply there.

I think there are some things mixed together in that quote. I don’t think we know when human autophagy peaks, if it does. Conditions for increased autophagy like lower insulin and higher glucagon keep improving in fasting humans for quite a few days. In mice, autophagy keeps increasing past the point at which they are more than halfway to death from starvation (would be quite a few months in many people).

There indeed is a difference in Phinney’s “people,” and Fung’s. Phinney’s tend to be younger, healthier and leaner. Phinney has also pretty much disregarded autophagy at times, and how the rate of protein consumption changes during fasting, to the point where’s he’s simply incorrect in some of his pronouncements.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #33

Perhaps not, but I’ve attended a couple of presentations by Ms. Ramos at Ketofest, in which she definitely discouraged fasting for longer than three days without medical supervision. And Dr. Fung has said similar things in various lectures on YouTube. I only noticed, because so many people appear to have the impression that Drs. Phinney and Fung are diametrically opposed on the issue of fasting, and I don’t see it. Dr. Phinney has stated more than once (including at Ketofest last year) that he has no problem with 36- to 48-hour fasts; it’s longer fasting that causes him concern.

There is the famous case of Angus Barbieri, from Tayport, who fasted for 382 days under medical supervision by doctors at a hospital in Dundee, and lost 276 pounds. The photos of him before and after are amazing. It was originally supposed to be a short-term fast, but he felt so good doing it that he was able to persuade the doctors to allow him to continue. They exacted from him a promise that he would cease fasting at the least hint of trouble. After leaving hospital, he checked in regularly with the doctors for blood tests. No doubt he was an outlier, but his case shows that a medically-supervised long-term fast can be safe. A case report was published by Stewart and Fleming in the Postgraduate Medical Journal, (1973) 49:203-209.

One major problem with extended fasting comes, as we discovered with POW’s and concentration-camp survivors during World War II, with ending the fast. Once people start to eat again, potassium can quickly get out of control if the refeeding is not handled properly. Refeeding syndrome is not an issue if the doctors know to look for it and how to deal with it, but it did kill people, before they worked out just how to handle it.

Medical authorities these days discourage fasting for any length of time, but a well-formulated ketogenic diet can provide most of the benefits of fasting, without the hunger and possible muscle loss (per Prof. Bikman). Granted, long-term fasting can be difficult for carb-burners, but people in my religious tradition have been fasting for up to forty days (long considered the safe limit) for at least several millennia without apparent ill effects.

(Bunny) #34

One thing he was doing while fasting was taking yeast. He did not absolutely, not eat anything!

Their are two types of yeast with different micronutritional variables; brewers yeast and nutritional yeast both are great for the ketogenic diet and fasting because they enhance the benefits of fasting and diet so taken together they are like turbo boosters for autophagy and maintaining vitality while fasting.

That’s how autophagy was discovered by studying yeast, so yeast definitely could not interfere with it. We have no idea how autophagy really works in the human body because there is really no way to measure it?

(Polly) #35

Bunny I don’t understand your assertion that: “autophagy was discovered by studying yeast, so yeast definitely could not interfere with it.”

If a biochemical process was discovered by a scientist studying rats or rabbits it would not make sense to conclude that eating a rat or a rabbit could not interfere with the process in a human subject especially if it is a process which is switched on by fasting.

(Bunny) #36

Assertions aside I’m a self-experimenter and like to delve much deeper than the ‘not supplementing with anything ‘assertion’ prior to or during a fast’ because ‘guru‘ says so?

You cannot measure autophagy in human beings anyway so I will stick with my own personal ‘assertions‘ and that ancient methods of fasting are closer to being sustainable for the purposes of my own experimentation on myself and efficacy …and share my results.

You could “fast” and turn on different “biological processes” but there may be micronutrients that are required to make those “biological processes” happen?

Being that (brewers) yeast all by itself is full of many B Vitamins and at least 25 unknown B-Vitamins in total can turn on the ketosis switch even without fasting or restricting calories because it is high in both Chromium and Vanadium (sister reactive elements on the periodic table) which relocates GLUT 1 transporters and it is also full of niacin (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide, NAD+ the amide form of vitamin B3 niacin).

Just like polyphenols and sulforaphane will induce a caloric restriction or a fasting state without really fasting or restricting calories (e.g. three meals a day etc.).

I myself can endure fasting much longer with brewers yeast & nutritional yeast (non-fortified) that I place into gel caplets (w/natural/Vitamin C) *…

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Angus Barbieri took Paladac during his 382 day fast, Paladac is a vintage yeast recipe (or even a ancient recipe for yeast fasting) that contains (infused /w) vitamin C:

Case Report: “…A 27-year-old male patient (Angus Barbieri) fasted under supervision for 382 days and has subsequently maintained his normal weight. Blood glucose concentrations around 30 mg/100 ml were recorded consistently during the last 8 months, although the patient was ambulant and attending as an out-patient. Responses to glucose and tolbutamide tolerance tests remained normal. The hyperglycaemic response to glucagon was reduced and latterly absent, but promptly returned to normal during carbohydrate refeeding. After an initial decrease was corrected, plasma potassium levels remained normal without supplementation. A temporary period of hypercalcaemia occurred towards the end of the fast . Decreased plasma magnesium concentrations were a consistent feature from the first month onwards. After 100 days of fasting there was a marked and persistent increase in the excretion of urinary cations and inorganic phosphate, which until then had been minimal. These increases may be due to dissolution of excessive soft tissue and skeletal mass. Prolonged fasting in this patient had no ill-effects. …More

Footnotes:

[1] Can a Pill Really Help You Live Longer?

[2] Ancient fasting methods: ‘Paladac’ which was vitamin C and yeast …” …More

[2] Biosynthesis of Vitamin C by Yeast Leads to Increased Stress Resistance

[3] 4 Potential Side Effects of Nutritional Yeast

[4] Brewer’s Yeast Improves Glycemic Indices in Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus

[5] Intracellular Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide Content of Brewer’s Yeast during Different Stages of Fermentation

[6] Niacin-bound chromium increases life span in Zucker Fatty Rats

[7] Nutrient sensing and signaling in the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae

[8] Replicative and Chronological Aging in Saccharomyces cerevisiae

[9] Chapter 2 Glucose Sensing and Signal Transduction in Saccharomyces cerevisiae

[10] Slowing Aging in Humans – What can we do Now “…Intermittent fasting (IF) and prolonged fasting (PF), as mentioned by researchers, were seen to downregulate Tor-S6K and Ras-adenylate cyclase-PKA, which are glucose sensing pathways in yeast. Similarly observed in worms and mice, these changes increase resistance to toxins and extend longevity. …”

[11] Life Span Extension by Calorie Restriction Depends on Rim15 and Transcription Factors Downstream of Ras/PKA, Tor, and Sch9

[12] Dietary Restriction, Growth Factors and Aging: from yeast to humans

[13] The Health Benefits of Using Brewer’s and Nutritional Yeast as a Probiotic (Saccharomyces cerevisiae)

(57 yo female started keto Jul '19) #37

@Polly1 I wish I could give more than one like :smile:

(bulkbiker) #38

Then you wouldn’t be able to turn those processes on by fasting?

I would have thought that was glaringly obvious.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #39

Is that a reference to the vitamin pills he took? If so, I’d be surprised if the calories amounted to anything significant. It’s hardly likely the entire tablet weighed as much as a gram, or two at the most.

(Bunny) #40

Apparently Barbieri did? Non-fortified Brewers and Nutritional Yeast is some awesome stuff and made me burn lots of body fat without eating for very extensive periods of time.