Are we just an echo chamber?


(Karen) #21

Lot of hard science to back it up. Lot of hard science to back it up. Helloooooooo, ok that was kind of echoey.

K


#22

As echo chambers go, this one is the least dogmatic Iā€™ve encountered. People here seem genuinely curious and excited about having discovered such a transformative approach to health.

Also, it takes a contrary personality to buck Conventional Wisdom and pursue unorthodox methods, effective as they may be. Wilt Chamberlain sank 61% of his free-throws when shooting underhanded for one season. But he felt he looked silly, so reverted to ā€œnormalā€ overhand shooting and never surpassed 51% thereafter. My road cyclist buddies would rather get run over by a truck than use a mirror and look silly like me. I have a diabetic friend who is on the verge of injecting insulin but wonā€™t consider trying reversal through diet because itā€™s not sanctioned by the ADA and his support system.

To pursue the Keto WOE takes a willingness not only to appear silly in the eyes of our friends and family, but to reject a lifetime of indoctrination and to assume agency for our health. Many people just wonā€™t go there.


#23

Try sitting in an office where at every angle you see someone eating a refined carb ā€˜productā€™, or telling their family they cannot have bacon but should have cereal or pancakes instead!

Sometimes you have to accept the only way you can change peoples perspective is when they observe your actions, or they show an interest. Until then people are wrapped up in history, their up-brining, their beliefs and the lies.

I mention my office again; I was looking pretty unhealthy (in my opinion); in under 2 months I have lost 24lb and IMO look sharp and have increased engagement in all aspects of my work, increased/sustained engery (all the good stuff). Butā€¦ no one is interested in the ā€˜howā€™ the ā€˜whyā€™ā€¦ people who are overweight will just say ā€œOh I wish I could loose my bellyā€ā€¦ I subtley mention ā€œitā€™s not that hardā€ā€¦ they donā€™t care, theyā€™re not ready to give up what they perceive they enjoy,.

There is no point trying to gain entry to a closed mind because you will just be banging your head against a brick wall. If you see a chink of light in someoneā€™s armour then there might be an opening and possibility to exchange your knowledge, but until then you are just wasting your time due to the barriers (hard and soft) that are raised high against an alternate possibilities or solutions to their problems.


(Alec) #24

OK, letā€™s not be an echo chamberā€¦

I think Brazil will win the World Cup.

Useful? No, I thought not.


(Adam Kirby) #25

Every single community online is an echo chamber of you think about it. The bodybuilding site, for instance, is an echo chamber.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #26

My nephew is rooting for Belgium. :bacon:


(Bunny) #27

The problem with this kind of thinking is type of food or nutrients being used for fuel constantly? e.g. I donā€™t care if your built like a brick shit house and healthy as can be; you burn excessive amounts of refined table sugar ā€œā€¦oh yeah bro eat lots of pasta, breads and carbs to bulk up, get cut and build big gunsā€¦ā€ even high amounts of fructose from fruit for too long, it will come back and bite you in the ass down the road?

Then there is steroid use and blocking the natural production of your own hormones which will also mess you up real good at a later date? You stop the use of steroids (dormant pituitary, testicular & abnormal adrenal conversion secretions; aggressiveness, psychotic anger management issues etc.) and you will get the female hormone redistribution of fat accumulation effect (little teeny tiny testicles; sterility)? You stop lifting? Oh boy your in for a double whammy?


(Joe Mercadante) #28

As long as we are willing to adjust our views and beliefs according to the latest science, we are not an echo chamber. We must remain vigilant and avoid that fate.


(Charlotte) #29

Any community organized around a shared practice or ideology is going to be an echo chamber, to an extent. That said, I think this forum does a good job of avoiding some of the more serious issues that come with a full-on echo chamber. I have posted a few things that didnā€™t necessarily gel with more established keto ā€œdogmaā€, and have experienced nothing but support and interest from other members in doing so. Most folks seem open to having ideas challenged, and allowing new scientific findings to inform their choices. There is little support for obnoxious evangelizing toward those who choose not to eat keto.

Basically, all the things that tend to make echo-chambers harmful and/or useless arenā€™t really issues here. I see this forum as primarily a place for support and resource sharing, which are important things to have for any group of people engaged in a shared practice for which there is little mainstream support or resource sharing. The fact that such a place will inevitably garner some ā€œecho-chamberā€-y attributes just unavoidably comes with the territory. It is on those of us who participate to keep that in mind and not allow ourselves to fall prey to dogma or unreasonable emotional reactions to ideas that donā€™t line up with our personal confirmation biases.

But donā€™t forget that many of us have literally reversed type 2 diabetes using this diet. We arenā€™t just believing this stuff on faith, people are here mainly because this WOE has literally, measurably, irrefutably changed our bodies and our lives for the better, and shocked our health care providers in the process. No one is asking anyone to mindlessly accept anything on faith, weā€™re asking folks to accept things based on evidence. Which is basically the opposite of a cult-like mentality when it comes down to it.

Finally, I donā€™t think itā€™s an echo chambery attribute to ask that no one come on here to argue with us about the merits of keto in generalā€“we all deal with that irl regularly enough, and itā€™s reasonable to want a place where we donā€™t have to defend and explain this stuff ad nauseum.

Thanks for bringing this upā€“Iā€™m firmly of the opinion that pretty much all self-selected communities of people organized around a practice and/or ideology should examine this from time to time to ensure they arenā€™t simply devolving into a cultish echo chamberā€“it can happen startlingly easily. Passionate large-scale validation of oneā€™s beliefs can be a hell of a drug.


(Doug) #30

Well said all the way through, Charlotte. :slightly_smiling_face: I agree - ā€œof courseā€ there is a degree of echoing, but I wouldnā€™t change it - I wouldnā€™t make it less or more like that than what we have.


(Charlotte) #31

Thanks! I think this is a really great forum, and Iā€™m grateful to have found it, largely because it lacks that harsh, dogmatic vibe Iā€™ve seen elsewhere, and is generally just a positive, supportive, reality-based community of smart people who believe in science. :slightly_smiling_face:


(the cheater) #32

Iā€™m constantly amazed by how intelligent members of this forum are and how substantively you guys can weigh on various topics. I really do love this forum. Thanks for chatting about this with me (us) for a while :slight_smile:


(Doug) #33

In the end, I think we zero in on some important truths, as a group and as individuals. There is the broad science that works for most people (sadly, not all :disappointed:) and then there are things like artificial sweeteners or not, dairy or not, a wide range of protein intakes, degree of focus on exact macros, periodic increased carbohydrate consumption or not, fasting or not, length of fasts, being concerned with ketosis levels or not, frequency of weighing, etc. Lots of us are far apart on some things, doing what is best, individual by individual - and the acceptance of those differences is impressive here.


(Karen) #34

What I love is that we are all providing experience and experiments for each other, as well as support for each otherā€™s journeys toward health. There are maintenance groups but most of us are still on the road.
I read, with objective interest, anything new that comes in, even if it contradicts what I think I know.
K


(Ken) #35

Here I go, offering the Heretical Viewpoint once again.

I was on the Bodybuilding.com keto board for many years. Since the CICO comment has resulted in so many kneejerk reactions, Iā€™ll provide the context as to the beliefs found on that board as to why they have them. Iā€™ll start with a simple couple of questions and answers.

Does CICO matter? Yes it does, and no, it doesnā€™t. You see where Iā€™m going on this, no doubt offending many people especially those in the fanatical noob stage.

The BB forum is for bodybuilders who are or want to follow a ketogenic diet to cut body fat. People ā€œin the lifestyleā€ who are generally very fit and who have already gone through multiple cutting cycles, including Carb based semi starvation ones. I myself fell into this category many years ago. Consequently, their degree of what we now think of as metabolic derangement is usually low. As a result of this, their period of adaptation is usually much shorter, often only a few weeks or so. They are also training during their cuts, which is very different than not, as the potential for a metabolic slowdown is greater, if not inevitable at some point. Under these circumstances, CICO is relevant for both fat loss, but also in the context of periodic Carb caloric excess in order to prevent starvation effects. What is, or what was missing on that board, AS WELL AS ON THIS ONE, is a comprehensive understanding of the extremely adaptive nature of both the Lipogenic and Lipolytic States.

So, in conclusion, itā€™s not that theyā€™re wrong, itā€™s that the site is more focused on people in a different lifestyle. On the contrary, many if not all of the topics discussed here like fasting, OMAD, ZC, etc. as well as the basic keto concepts were discussed there in detail nearly two decades ago, thereā€™s just been much more validation of them since then. Iā€™ll conclude by reiterating a point, that once you get to the point where derangement is eliminated, your insulin-glucagon and leptin-ghrelin balances are restored you will need to follow CICO in order to lose additional fat. Itā€™s all an adaptive process.


(CharleyD) #36

Beautifully said. Not too many echo chambers manage to do the impossible!


(the cheater) #37

Oh yeah? Whereā€™s the proof. Where are the peer reviewed, double-blind, placebo something something research articles? Why hasnā€™t this been on the front page of my MSN tab when I open the browser? Why hasnā€™t Jimmy Kimmel talked about it? Why isnā€™t Trump funding this? Why hasnā€™t this been on Dr. Oz? Why isntā€¦ Whyā€¦ Whyā€¦

See? Itā€™s frustrating. To those of us who have experienced it, itā€™s so real and obvious that itā€™s common sense, like the air we breathe. But to outsiders, itā€™s so against the status quo that itā€™s crazy. Iā€™m just glad I had a crazy friend to turn me onto it 6 months ago.


(CharleyD) #38

The Overton Window is coming up I believe. The Virta study is cementing all the best practices, Keto is only getting more popular as a search, and judging from what Iā€™d call ā€œsurrenderā€ of the old guard at the Zurich conference, ā€œsaturated fat not being a nutrient of concernā€ is the cherry on top.

Pretty soon itā€™ll be common sense.


(LeeAnn Brooks) #39

How long was is common knowledge that the Earth was the center of the universeā€¦ until it wasnā€™t? How long was it crazy to propose the Earth was anything but flatā€¦ until it wasnā€™t? How long was it believed the atom was the smallest particleā€¦ until it wasnā€™t?

It can take a long time to alter accepted beliefs, but when a tipping point is reached, the masses will come along. Sure, there will always be your flat Earth wackadoodles, but the conscensus will change when enough people accept the science.


(Doug) #40

Heck yes, a good 1800 or 1900 years, eh? From the time of Plato until Copernicus did his thing. :smile:

The global market for insulin is over $20 billion and growing fast. Some of that goes to Type 1 diabetics, but add in all the other medications for Type 2, and the downstream cascading effects of the disease and the medical costs therein, and the financial stake for maintaining the status quo is enormous. Iā€™m surprised there hasnā€™t been a more concerted effort to scare people away from ketogenic eating already.