Are we just an echo chamber?

(Doug) #56

Karen, agreed there is more outright denial of “the other side,” now. And if one consciously or subconsciously is really stuck on carbs, then it could be awfully easy to believe that which facilitates it.

(Michel Labelle) #57

I couldn’t help myself…

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/reversing-diabetes.html

The Diabetes UK site lists 4 ways to do it, including studies and science that show it is possible.

Point taken, as to "Why is it not at the top of the MSN tab etc… ". But not mainstream does not mean buried.

Basic reading/research and not succumbing to confirmation bias is required to avoid the echo…

(Sharon) #58

I came from Youtube :face_vomiting: --> Facebook :rage: --> Here. :slightly_smiling_face: Brand new to posting here but I’ve read many posts. Be glad of the way things are!

#59

@Michel_Labelle - thanks for the link to the UK resources. I tried to find similar information on the US site at www.diabetes.org and, Browsing and Searching gave me nothing. Pretty much, you’ve got diabetes, get used to it. And, the dietary advice seems designed to progress the disease. Lot of reassurance that you can just continue to eat like everyone else.

(Diane) #60

Great presentation! Thanks for sharing!!

(icky) #61

Yeah, bizarre, huh?

I googled official diabetes org recommendations re low carb and keto for the thread below and found HEAPS on the official UK sites and “minimal to nothing” on the official USA and Canada diabetes org sites, like @Michel_Labelle

(the cheater) #62

Thank you for sharing that video! I just shared it myself on FB. Everyone needs to see it. I have one for you guys as well that will blow your minds:

(Robert R Beauchamp) #63

Some Nobel Prize winner once said: “The plural of anecdote is ‘data.’”

I’ve lost 60 pounds in 7 months and increased lean mass by 4 pounds in the same period. I don’t really care if it’s an echo chamber. I’m looking for things that work for me. I’ll try them and whether they work or don’t work for me, I’ll report back. Carbs don’t work for me.

(the cheater) #64

I think one of this issues that most people who oppose this way of eating cite is that “what are the long-term consequences?” That is, sure; I, too have lost about 40 lbs in just a few short months and have no plans on EVER eating a SAD again, knowing what I know now. I guess people just see it as another fad diet; not realizing that there are fundamental changes in our knowledge of food and our own bodies and chemistry that are not something you can just ignore - you can’t UNKNOW what you know now as a ketoer. That’s the difference between this and your standard ‘fad’ diet.

It’s actually kinda scary, in a way, since now the onus of our health is on us rather than depending on governmental guidelines and simply falling victim to the consequences there and being able to blame it on someone else. It’s equally empowering, though.

(Keto Old Guy) #65

I’m going to address the topic in general. It seems that most of these comments boil down to the two “camps” believing only one concept each. The “CICO Camp” believes that you can eat whatever you want and will lose/manage your weight based on your total calories consumed. The “Keto Camp” believes that you must eat low carbs and have low insulin levels in order to lose body fat. This then is extended into the meme of eating sticks of butter and that “Calories don’t matter.”

I believe that “The Truth” is somewhere in between. As long as people continue to present these extreme and somewhat mutually exclusive positions, then the “go back to your echo chamber” comments will continue. The same is true about political or religious beliefs. People enjoy arguing, and defending their thoughts and positions. There are no Randomized Controlled Trials related to religion or politics, so at least arguing about diet has a chance to be somewhat more objective.

(the cheater) #66

I’m not sure anyone is suggesting that calories don’t matter; but that CICO as the exclusive rule for eating, either for weight loss or just in general, seems to be the main antagonist to keto. CICO seems to be synonymous with the SAD; I think that’s why it seems to be discussed or alluded to as “mutually exclusive” to keto.

But yeah, calories should be monitored, especially if you’re trying to lose, maintain, or gain weight. That said, the satiety that comes with doing keto well, and especailly doing keto mixed with IF, all but precludes over-eating - at least to any extent that someone would need to severely curtail their eating - like, go on a diet while being keto lol!

I think the echo chamber remarks are more geared toward ketoers ignoring traditional dietary guidelines and hanging out on a forum and listening to podcasts that encourage us to eat fat and minimize/eliminate carbs, despite what the “science” and “official” governmental guidelines dictate.

(Doug) #67

This makes sense to me. One’s context can matter a lot, too - if one is hormonally/metabolically healthy, that is usually far different from being insulin resistant.

I have no objection to ‘CICO’ - we just need to remember that it’s not only calories that are burned on the “Out” side, it’s also those which are stored or excreted. People that insist that “Keto people live in an echo chamber” need to realize that all things are not equal, necessarily - that hormonal issues may result in energy being stored, versus being burned, meaning weight gain on a given caloric intake may occur, whereas otherwise it would not be expected. And likewise, that hormonal issues (whether related to calorie restriction or not) may mean metabolic slowdown and/or increased hunger.

(Michel Labelle) #68

When ever I see these - in my words - extreme one sided views. I like to add qualifier words such as “much” and “yet”.

That way:
The “CICO Camp” believes that you can eat whatever you want
becomes
The “CICOCamp” believes that you can PRETTY MUCH eat whatever you want

Point being they say they believe it is not so much what you eat, but how much…

And thus
The “Keto Camp” believes that you must eat low carbs
becomes
The “Keto Camp” believes that you PRETTY MUCH must eat low carbs

Point being they say they believe it is not so much, how much you eat, but what and when…

Take the absolute out of the equation, and you know what… we PRETTY MUCH can understand each other…

And while we may not agree, our points are less dug in and we understand each other. And notice that they are NOT contradictory…

  • A CICO person by default says we can eat Keto, they simply think the TOTAL calories matter
  • A KETO person by default says that we can eat less (fasting…), as your body is furnishing the rest but we we think the TYPE of calories matters.

When presented that way, most of the CICO people tend to listen and understand we are not advocating that you CAN’t eat something, and most of the KETO people simply acknowledge that there is no loss by NOT eating something.

In my discussions this last point is the important one, and once I can get someone there, then they realize this is more about choice. Choice of certain outcomes (health, body composition and at the end weight) over choice of food and hunger.

(Alec) #69

How do you monitor calories out?

(the cheater) #70

This was one of my arguments. You can, in tightly controlled clinical circumstances, monitor how your metabolism is working with breath analysis and blood analysis (someone else will be able to explain it better) but most people do not have the tech to do this. It’s just guesswork and bro science for the most part. That was part of my initial argument: that CICO doesn’t work because the body is infinitely more complex. CICO fails to recognize hormones, mood, sleep, timing, lean/fat mass, etc when it comes to figuring out how many calories one should take in. The counter argument was that it’s easy to calculate how many calories a person needs. Well, generally, sure - somewhere between x and y - but specifically? Not so easy. Plus, as your body composition changes, so does your BMR and caloric requirements.

But you’re right. It’s not as easy as a set number of “CI” vs “CO.” That’s where I think keto rules the roost; it seems to recognize that not all calories are created equal, and there is more to energy balance than input/output.

(Alec) #71

This is the key point. If we could measure calories out easily, I am convinced we would not have the low calorie diet, as people would be able to see what happens to calories out when they restrict calories in. According the Dr Fung, calories out can change 40-50% (and sometimes more) in response to changes in calories in.

You said calories should be monitored. Why, if you can only measure half the equation?

(LeeAnn Brooks) #72

But you really can’t. And the CI vs CO are not independent on each other, so if you have a 30% decrease in CI, your body will compensate by creating an almost offsetting reduction in CO. It’s virtually impossible for us to know how much calorie energy is being used to create muscle mass, new bone growth, even fat storage… even with being able to monitor SOME CO functions, there are thousands more within the body that cannot possibly be measured. Though we do know with those we can that there is almost an identical decrease in CO for a decrease in CI.

(Alec) #73

@decreebass, @Anniegirl9, are we proving here we are not an echo chamber? :thinking::joy::joy::crazy_face:

(the cheater) #74

lol I think if anything we’re proving that we understand there is a lot of complexity and it’s not as easy as “read the stickies, dumb****,” like they do over at BB, as if all the basics have already been completely settled. Here, we realize that even our basic assumptions are under fire from research as well as personal experience :slight_smile:

(TJ Borden) #75

True, but that would be a snapshot at the time of the test. The info would be outdated by the time you got home from the clinic.