Are veggies important?
I done believe itâs an unconditional requirement but I also donât believe there is zero benefit. This argument has been raging for over 2000 years. It says in Romans 14:2 that "For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs" Iâm more happy knowing I can eat meat and vegetables and even some fruit once in a while (birthdays and such) but I also know iâm better of after years of overeating carbs to lay off of them as much as I can. And that goes for alcohol as well. Itâs funny that since being keto adapted for a long time I seem to be able to process wine much better than I could. After not drinking for 6 months I had a half a bottle of red wine camping a few weeks ago and was worried that I would have a hang over but I felt absolutely no ill effects the next morning. I even got up at the crack of dawn and hiked a mountain without the least dehydration. So Iâm sure I can handle a few apples and berries and greens :o)
We just need to be sensible . . . (not obsessed)
Gross, I canât be a part of this topic anymore.
We can eat all the animals, fine, but some fates are worse than death and this may be one of them.
itâs liver - the carnivore equivalent of phytonutrient sources. 
donât believe the hype - foie gras has exhisted for millenia and started in ancient egypt.
http://www.artisanfarmers.org/historyoffoiegras.html
Yes, Lustig (not Ludwig, different guy - did you mean Lustig?) defined it as most in one of his lectures, when it comes to high fiber fruits like apples, pears, etc - he explains that fibrous fruit mostly becomes food for the bacteria who transform it to butyrate and the rest is eliminated through the bowels. Thus, the âpoisonâ of fructose in its natural form, is harmoniously counterbalanced by the fiber in high fiber fruits - as something really special, heavenly, etc.
He also says this to remedy some of the âfruit fearâ in the low carb world - a fear that I had a bit of during my first year LCHF/keto and which I didnât like having, as fruit trees and bushes are quite amazing, and I love them.
So Dr. Lustig urges that enjoying one piece of whole, fibrous fruit a day has its place and its medicine (anti-oxidants, vitamins, pectins) for the fat-adapted. A far cry from canned peeled fruit and the SAD advisory to eat 3-4 pieces of fruit per day!
Well, as Grace Liu Phd talks about - sheâs treated people whoâve gone carnivore for many years - 6+ - whoâve suffer from a die off of the good bacteria in the large intestine (the ones who rely on some amount of fiber/RS for their populations to maintain) and developed SIBO and inflammatory/immune conditions due to overgrowth of the bad bacteria and systemic consequences.
Maybe it was just that those folks didnât eat traditional carnivore, ie., raw meat, lots of offal, fermented bird tummies or contents of some animals stomachs, and/or enough actual soil microbes on the food. I do think we all need to cultivate a âwarrior gutâ as Liu puts it. She recommends soil-based organisms as prebiotic probiotics.
This seems very odd to me as I keep hearing that many people go to Carnivore as essentially a food elimination diet to help with health issues. It is often their last resort and several outspoken people said it turned things around for them.
Thatâs such a thorough and well-formulated article (nothing less from Virta Health!), thank you!
"While the fiber itself may be conditionally necessary, the additional nutrients and minerals provided by many fiber-rich foods may provide additional benefits and can certainly be a part of a WFKD.
The fact that most individuals can nonetheless sustain nutritional ketosis while simultaneously consuming fiber from real foods at or above 25 grams per day (Table 1) means they can benefit from the best of both worlds."
Louise Gittelman PhDâs LCHF book for midlife women called Radical Metabolism, goes into the wonderful role that certain raw whole fruits and also veggie juicing routines can play in midlife for detoxification from decades of pollutants/medications/addictions. These gifts of the earth have beneficial constituents like anti-oxidants that are carried deep into the body through optimal hydration from their mineral rich juice, and that greatly enhance fertility/preconception health in younger people.
Iâm grateful for how refreshed and spiritually blessed I feel after eating one apple or pear several days a week - while continuing recomp. On days with no fruit, Iâm now aspiring to eat a teaspoon of raw honey (or of bee bread/perga for the propolis and pollen) with cheese or yogurt - and have similar refreshment, while remaining within my LCHF boundaries. Of course, I didntâ start experimenting with this till after 1+ year of keto - and if I didnât stop at one fruit or one teaspoon as a way of life, it might morph into high carb.
Glad Phinney & Volek arenât banning what feels so lovely and vivifying at my age. 
Maybe itâs about whether itâs traditional meat/milk-centered eating with the raw aspects and offal and/or fermented birds (and fermented fruits in some traditional societiesâ special beverages) - or whether itâs modern interpretations/stereotypes of the traditional. Iâve noticed lots of quick nâ easy stereotyping of the Inuit and other Arctic peoples (lots of different tribes) in the low carb and carnivore world as these northern peoples would shun bags of traded berries, a good seaweed soup, or the soft dried âmouse grassesâ - all of which were a part of the regionâs dietary culture in small amounts in terms of how the time in between trading and âsummerâ weather worked out.
Regardless, nowadays the deteriorated health of Arctic peoples is solely to do with the incursion of industrial foods/junk and its cultural genocide having interfered with traditional hunting culture.
According to Liu, the benefits pendulum of the modernized version of carnivore - cooked muscle meat-only typically - swings the other direction after many years, painfully. Of course, could also be due to a lack of fat and organs - as traditional peoples prized both highly.
Maybe I misread.
I thought you meant she has been doing this (treating people) for many years.
I guess you are instead saying the people went carnivore for many years.
I agree on the nose-to-tail if long term.
But, if short term for weight change - seems like majority muscle meat with at least some liver would be a good intervention for 3 to 6 months to help out your system (along with the weight loss).
Never heard of her. Funny though, as cutting out plants usually treats those conditions.
Yeah, itâs a pendulum of sorts - and, long-term studies of the sustainability of exclusively meat-based eating (looking at the degree of fat, the degree of offal, cooked vs. raw, to sort out modern discrepancies that may impact microbiome health donât exist yet).
Cutting out one kind of excess fermentation can create significant improvements for years - but there are apparently longer term microbiome matters that can result in another kind of imbalance. Liuâs a pharmacologist, and both she and microbiologist Norm Robillard PhD amplify the potential help of soil-based organisms and certain kinds of Resistant Starch.
One of the longstanding LCHF physicians, Michael Eades MD, recommends Robillardâs work for sustainable digestive healing.
Iâve seen more gut biomes testing with higher diversity than than when these people were eating fiber than not.
Paleomedicina has case studies of healing gut permeability, and some patients even being allowed to add plants back in eventually, using a high fat, organ-oncluding animals-only diet.
The issue with plants is not just that they arenât helpful for diegestion, itâs that many contain pesticides which block our absorption of minerals, including the minerals that we already do a poor job of converting to those we need, such as beta carotene and vitamin K1. See my link above for information on butyrate. Our caecum is abysmally small compared to apes, we do a bad job of fermenting.
One thing to keep in mind is they have been messing around (hydrid cultivating) with that rice, it is not the same rice it once (ââŚ15,000 years or longerâŚâ) was (wild rice) so it loses all its original nutrients and even more so after polishing it, so it looks prettyâŚlol
References:
[2] Chinese wild rice has been consumed for over 3000 years âŚMore
[3] Comparative Study on Nutritional Value of Chinese and North American Wild Rice: Abstract The nutritional composition of Chinese wild rice [Zizania latifolia (Griseb) Turcz] from five lakes in China and North American wild rice (Zizania aquatica) from the United States of America and Canada was determined for comparison of nutritional value. The contents of moisture, protein, fat, ash and dietary fiber were similar (P>0.05), while iron, thiamin and vitamin E (tocopherol) contents of Chinese wild rice were higher than in North American wild rice samples (P<0.01, P<0.05). Methionine, zinc and riboflavin contents of North American wild rice samples were higher than in Chinese samples (P<0.01, P<0.05). Amino acid scores of Chinese, American and Canadian samples were 84, 82 and 8l, respectively. Protein Efficiency Ratio (PER) of Chinese wild rice was 2.75 by rat assay, which is very high for a cereal.
We were definitely intended to eat raw tuber resistant starch (sweet potato, cassava, and dahlia) if anything to feed our gut bugs or our salivary glands would not be exclusively or only producing amylase[1]?
I can see no harm in being a strict carnivore and eating an occasional tuber?
Kind of strange, I am literally almost carnivore myself or drifting to that state naturally, not simply by choice!
But then again I eat organ and glandular meats that would make most people retract in horror and sometimes even raw if it is free of pathogens (fresh)âŚlol
âŚAnd I also take soil based probiotics but very infrequentlyâŚ
References:
[1] ââŚWhile catsâ and dogsâ pancreatic and intestinal tissues can and do produce amylases that are fully capable of digesting carbohydrates, the lack of salivary amylase reminds us that nature did not intend carbs to be their primary source of nutrition . âŚâ âŚMore