Are veggies important?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #62

And since our ancestral line goes back something like two million years, whereas we discovered agriculture only about twelve thousand years ago, that gives a pretty good indication of the sort of things we should be eating.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #63

Donā€™t omit the fact that antibiotics had not yet been discovered in Stefanssonā€™s day, either. Infectious disease used to kill a lot of people. Remember all those Victorian novels where people were deathly afraid of contracting an infection? And infections might start being lethal again, if our antibiotics all stop working.

Fortunately, if one eats a high-meat diet, cholesterol has an anti-infective effect and helps strengthen the immune system in other ways.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #64

I hated my motherā€™s liver, because it tasted and felt like eating sandpaper. However, my ex, many years ago, took me to dinner at the home of some very dear friends of his, and the cook served us liver. I was determined to choke it down for loveā€™s sake, and was amazed at how good it tasted. The cook told me afterward what her secret was: no more than a minute (90 seconds, maximum) on each side. Delicious!

(mole person) #65

Iā€™m aware of that but he was clearly saying that he found them unusually short lived. He said that they had excellent health but very few old people.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #66

Infectious disease was the reason.

(Robert C) #67

I would think infectious disease would be the reason after outside contact.
Prior to that, inside their somewhat closed system, it seems like that wouldnā€™t be the case (for communicable diseases anyway).

#68

See also: introduction of tobacco and alochol into the indigenous diet by European settlers, and the inherited stresses and trauma of colonization.

(mole person) #69

Iā€™ll just drop Steffanssonā€™s own words here. Itā€™s clear what he thought. As I said in my first post, I think itā€™s impossible to pin on their diet with certainty due to the other extremes of their environment.

_"ā€¦that these survivors of the stone age were the healthiest people I have ever lived among. I would say the community, from infancy to old age, may have had on the average the health of an equal number of men about twenty, say college students.

The danger is that you may reason from this good health to a great longevity. But meat eaters do not appear to live long. So far as we can tell, the Eskimos, before the white men upset their physiological as well as their economic balance, lived on the average at least ten years less than we. Now their lives average still shorter; but that is partly from communicated diseases."_

#70
#71

Thatā€™s a remarkable lack of helpful information on his end. Ten years compared to ā€œweā€, does he mean European colonizers as of the time he wrote this? An average of ten-years less during pre-Colombian times? And where does he get this information? Colonization had already been going on for a few hundred years once he did his experiment, where did he get his information? How does he know it was the meat-eating the caused an alleged shorter lifespan?

I think we have to acknowledge there are severe limitations to his report, as helpful as it otherwise may be; at the end of the day, he was still an outsider looking in.

(mole person) #72

I donā€™t think the Inuit were colonized in pre-Columbian times. Stefansson was among the earlier explorers. I think the time frame he is describing is more that of a generation as opposed to hundreds of years. Itā€™s been a while since Iā€™ve read the entire account however. I recommend it though. It was fascinating.

#73

First Contact was made between the European colonizers and the Inuit by at least the late 1500s, and hostile missionary movements were in place by at least the 18th century. Inuit tribes who lived in more northern Canadian and Alaskan territory might have been spared some persistent European influence, but all of that was gone by the early 19th century.

Itā€™s good that Stefansson was an anthropologist, and his work is valuable, but at the end of the day heā€™s still an outsider looking in, and to rely on a European for correct information about indengenous life in pre-Columbian times is iffy at best.

#74

Hmm, in the lecture I listened to he described it as most of the fructose being sequestered and bound by the fiber so that most of it doesnā€™t enter the bloodstream, it is eaten by the good bacteria and transformed into butyrate - beyond slowing. In other words, most doesnā€™t get metabolized?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #75

Well, itā€™s been a while since I last watched ā€œSugar: The Bitter Truth,ā€ so my memory may have drifted.

#76

I know some does not get metabolized, I never heard that it was ā€œmostā€. I dont think sequestered means it never gets metabolized but that it takes longer because it takes time to break down the cells.

Fiber provides ā€œits greatest benefit when the cell walls that contain it remain intact,ā€ he said. Sugars are effectively sequestered in the fruitā€™s cells, he explained, and it takes time for the digestive tract to break down those cells. The sugars therefore enter the bloodstream slowly, giving the liver more time to metabolize them. (Dr. Ludwig)

(Chris) #77

That honestly sounds like something my body wants nothing to do with. If it doesnā€™t melt in my stomach acid, turn back!

(Karim Wassef) #78

Hmmm. Fiber is actually one of those plant parts that I think are actually beneficial. Not necessary, but beneficial. Theyā€™re converted to fats (This applied to fats that we can ferment onlyā€¦)

Hereā€™s why: fats come in short, medium, and long chains. Within the long chains, there are saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated. With the poly, there are inflammatory 6 and anti-inflammatory 3s as well as a range of other fats.

Each kind of fat is really good at some things but not others. Even omega 6s in the right ratios are good.

Fiber fermentation results in short chain fatty acids that directly feed the cells in the lining of the gut. We can ferment plants outside our bodies (like kimchi or sauerkraut) or inside our guts. The plants with net carbs are better fermented outside so the bugs can remove the sugars and carbsā€¦ The biproducts are healthy.

Like I said, I think veggies are more like medicine than food. They can help in moderation, but arenā€™t necessary. This is also part of the genesis of herbal doctors in many tribes - they recognize that plants have some nasty chemicals but also some beneficial onesā€¦ medicine.

(bulkbiker) #79

Nope

(Deborah ) #80

@PaulL I donā€™t like liver (to put it mildly), but am willing to try your method. Will it work for chicken liver or only beef?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #81

Chicken liver is hard to find in my area. Iā€™ve only ever cooked beef liver.