Are veggies important?

(bulkbiker) #42

I think they’d have to be vegan to be grass fed?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #43

“All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.” (Isaiah 40:6)

(Chris) #44

Vegetarian and Vegan are the same thing to me, Mark. Both obnoxious.

(to any vegetarians reading this, I am totally kidding)

(Carl Keller) #45

When I think of the question “Are veggies important?”, I try to consider the diverse ways in which our ancestors fed themselves and I keep arriving at the response that it depends on what foods were available to them. I think of the asian diet and its heavy reliance on rice for the past 15,000 years or longer but in contrast, I think of the Masai and the Inuit who thrived on protein. Both dietary tendencies have been successful for eons and it’s difficult for me to say which one was better unless I could be certain of who lived the longest (which brings me to wonder about the Okinawan diet and its people who have the highest longevity in the world and who also eat very little meat).

Personally, I like vegetables and I believe that if they don’t cause me harm, there’s nothing wrong with eating them. They are cheaper than meat and as an omnivore, I am more than capable of processing most of the good things in them. But I don’t crave vegetables. All my primal cravings begin and end with protein and fat.

(bulkbiker) #46

Allegedly…

#47

I mean, everything I’ve found about pre-war Okinawa suggests they consumed a lot of pork, it was so associated with them that mainland Japanese people used it to discrimate against them once Okinawa was colonized by Japan.

I do agree tho that a lot of this boils down to “eat what your ancestors typically ate in a best-case scenario.” Or at least remove sugar and vegetable oils from the equation. Issues arrive when it comes down to determining what one’s ancestors actually ate in a pre-colonized world. It only takes one generation for a lifetime of culture to be lost, so a lot of things we think we know about certain peoples is at best splintered.

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #48

I crave meat the most, and then fat and then veggies. I don’t crave fruit, grains, or honey.

My teeth, jaw and mouth want the crunch of veggies. I think mouth feel is as important as taste. I’m sure if I was a wild woman I’d be chewing tree bark while I worked.

(Chris) #49

@CarlKeller

What Cobra says. The Okinawan study was done in 1949, when the population of pigs was reduced from 6 figures down below 50,000. They were starving themselves at that point, and their health has declined ever since.

#50

I seem to crave whatever I have not had for a long time and right now that’s just about EVERYTHING :o)

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #51

Well there’s craving (what does my body need) and craving (what does the devil on my shoulder want to taste :icecream:

(Carl Keller) #52

For sure I’ve always viewed the Okinawa claim with some skepticism. Fallacies can become accepted as truth if repeated enough times. I mentioned the Okinawa diet as an aside to the OP’s question and I should have included my standard disclaimer.

So if their health has declined ever since, how is that the popular claim is that Okinawan’s have the greatest longevity? It seems like a paradox or is it just untrue? I’m genuinely curious if you know something that contradicts mainstream media. I think the only way to really know what Okinawans ate a hundred years ago would be to talk to the elders. Maybe they could tell us what their fathers and grandfathers really ate.

(Chris) #53

They had the longevity in 1949 when the longevity study was done. After generations of heavy pork dieting. After the war, the supply never bounced back. Neither did health.

(Carl Keller) #54

I will be looking more into this story. Thanks for the leads Chris.

(mole person) #55

Actually Lustig does say that a lot of the fructose that is bound to fruit fibres makes it far enough into the intestines that it ends up metabolized by our gut bacteria rather then our own liver.

#56

I think American perception of Okinawa suffers from much the same Orientalist flavors of America’s overall love-hate relationship with ~the East~

In terms of diet discussions, we see shades of this all the time. People talk about how healthy ~Asians~ are, how the ~Asian Diet~ is healthier than our own. There’s very much an othering and exotifying surrounding our discussions of the food habits of the continent that holds the world’s largest population.

Just like how Keys seemed obsessed with boiling down the perfect Mediterranean Diet, even tho no such concept existed, I think the current obsession with the Okinawa Diet is just part of the West’s obessession with exotifying a narrowed perception of the East, without regard to context and ignoring all parts that don’t fit our world view. So we create this snapshot of what we think the Okinawa Diet is, based almost entirely on a post-war Okinawa under American military control, that erases the complex history of the island, and the influences of other countries’ footprints on it before our own.

(mole person) #57

I never hear it mentioned, but according to Steffansson’s own account the Inuit whose carnivorous diet he was immitating were actually quite short lived. Of course given the extremes of their living conditions it’s impossible to pin that fact to their diet.

#58

Thank you so much! I have been really trying to work up the nerve to try liver again and the recipes I’ve seen just don’t seem like they would disguise the taste enough to make it palatable for me. I know how overcooking can destroy the taste of steak and seafood, so this makes sense! I really hope I like it, because I’d really like to start incorporating offal (starting with liver) into my diet.

(Robert C) #59

@Ilana_Rose and @CarlKeller - I wonder how important the length of life is?

Could it be more about gene expression?

If their ancestors up until recently ate in a way that made them live very long - maybe that exact same diet for you (based on your genes and ancestry) would actually shorten your life? Maybe their intake was just well matched to positive expressions of their genes.

I personally think that is true for going vegan for myself. If I ate like the people listed in the link below, I think I’d be very sick or dead in not-too-long a timeframe. But they obviously got a long ways being centurions.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/513900@N23/discuss/72157626391777857/

#60

Smart! I’m going to do this if @PaulL 's liver cooking technique doesn’t get me over the taste! I imagine you can do this with any offal.

(Carl Keller) #61

Why not? I think what was available to our personal ancestors certainly influenced how we evolved in a dietary sense. Dr. Ken Berry seems to believe that people with neanderthal genes do much better on a carnivore diet. Why wouldn’t the same apply to people whose ancestors relied heavily on vegetables?