Are the Keto recipes really keto?

(bulkbiker) #8

I’m sorry but you really really are overthinking it and that is apparently what is making you want to give up looking at your other thread.

#9

No one is going to do research that accurately reflects my personal health history, activity level, genetics, environment, etc., so I use common sense in choosing sources that I trust, and then I experiment to see what variables I need to tweak to get the results I want.
N=1 is wonderful science

#10

There’s no way protein needs are a percentage of caloric intake.

And carbs aren’t essential, so there’s no reason I must hit 5%.

And since my body’s stored fat can replace some of my need for dietary fat, a percentage of calories doesn’t need to apply to fat intake.

It should be obvious that those percentages could be vastly different for someone trying to gain weight, lose weight, or maintain weight. Or someone that is morbidly obese versus a pumped up body builder or someone that is little more than skin and bones.

My simple concept of keto is “Minimal carbs. Adequate proteins. Fats as needed (for satiety).”

But, in the end, it’s carbs that define keto. Restriction of carbs results in ketosis.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #11

I agree with @OgreZed and others above that carb restriction basically defines ‘keto’. If you describe ‘keto’ as being in the state of ketosis, then carb restriction is the only hard requirement. Specific fat:protein+carb ratios are very fungible depending on ultimate dietary goals. I think Phinney’s 5/20/75 is only a guideline. If you use that as a hard rule, you end up steadily increasing total carb intake as total calories rise. That is not the objective. It is far more useful to define keto as sub-20 grams of carbs per day regardless of whatever percentage that works out to be. Then adjust fat and protein to achieve your specific goals, whether weight loss, T2D recovery or overall health.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #12

Another good keto macro is

0g. carb / 0 g. protein / 0g. Fat

This is guaranteed ketosis and the most budget friendly keto diet. :cowboy_hat_face:

(KCKO, KCFO) #13

Nope, there is no set keto because different people get into ketosis different ways. No set macros, etc.

This is a great article.

(KCKO, KCFO) #14

:smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Right answer, Dave.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #15

Phinney himself said these percentages are not goals, but rather when people restricted carbs, ate enough protein and fat for the rest, the result is they naturally ate at these percentages. They are results, not a formula.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #16

I’m not sure how you are calculating things, since you don’t give the compositions of the items you list. I see 104 g of carbohydrate, which seems excessive, if the goal is to get into ketosis. Also, 100 g of sausage would only be about 25 g of protein, which seems decidedly low.

Macronutrient calculations are always done as percentages of total calories. So 104 g carbohydrate x 4 cal/g = 416 cal. For that to be only 4% of your total caloric intake of the day, implies that your intake for the day was 10,400 calories, which seems far too much.

Let’s work it the other way round: if you limit yourself to 20 g carbohydrate, get 150 g of protein (which comes to about 600 g of meat), and an equal amount of fat, you are eating 20 * 4 + 150 * 4 + 150 * 9 = 2030 calories, and your percentages would be 3.9 % carbohydrate, 29.6% protein, and 66.5% fat.

The definition of nutritional ketosis, as promulgated by Phinney and Volek, is a serum β-hydroxybutyrate level of 0.5 mmol/L or higher. This requires strictly limiting one’s carbohydrate intake, since carbohydrates are long chains of glucose molecules, and serum glucose in any quantity strongly stimulates insulin production. Chronic hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia are quite damaging to the body, so the advantage of any way of eating that minimises such damage should be obvious. Furthermore, insulin is the primary hormone promoting the storage of triglycerides in the adipose tissue, where they are sequestered until serum insulin drops to a sufficiently low level to permit their egress.

The definition of a ketogenic diet, therefore, is any way of eating that lowers carbohydrate intake to the point where ketogenesis and fatty-acid metabolism are no longer suppressed by elevated serum insulin. In practice, this requires a very low intake of carbohydrate.

One’s threshold for carbohydrate intake is, as I understand it, an absolute value, though idiosyncratic, and dependent on one’s degree of insulin resistance. The greater the insulin resistance, the lower the threshold of carbohydrate intake must be in order to lower serum insulin sufficiently to permit ketogenesis and fatty-acid metabolism. The remainder of the diet consists of protein and fat ad libitum, since in the lower-insulin environment, our satiety signaling is restored to functioning, and appetite becomes again a reliable guide to how much to eat.

One wants an adequate but not excessive amount of protein, and the rest of calories can safely come from fat, since its effect on insulin secretion is so low as to be negligible. (The effect of protein on insulin depends on whether the diet is high or low in carbohydrate.)

(PJ) #17

I understand the need to be specific. When I first start anything, I am the same way. One has to get the definitions clear in order to hold a workable mental model.

When I began low carb, I weighed everything on a gram scale and then even got a micro-gram scale for spices. :rofl: I carefully removed carrot shreds from salad blends. I tracked everything to the second or third decimal in a multi-tab workbook in Excel, and I spent more time on the USDA nutrition counts website than a teenager spends on social media.

As time went on, my need to have everything add up and nail down grew. I ranted about people who called what they were doing low-carb when by my chosen expert’s definition it was not. I was exasperated with people allegedly doing the plan… wrong. (You cannot possibly already be having nuts at this stage of Atkins! :rofl: )

There was plenty of ranting fodder in research. Studies would deliberately choose more carbs than could be keto for most people and ‘allegedly’ replicate. Studies would deliberately use the first three weeks of keto during ‘adaptation’ and then compare that to people on a calorie deficit diet and conclude with drama about low-carb’s problems. And the media was a never-ending propaganda machine in favor of Big Carb.

As it turns out…

Nobody died from eating nuts during induction. For that matter, some people didn’t even DO induction and went straight to about 35 or so net carbs. People did all kinds of things. And as it turns out… it often worked for them. If something was going wrong and it wasn’t working, maybe they’d find out they can’t eat that much cheese in a day without stall for example, but it was a N=1 experiment for every individual.

The single best phrase about lowcarb eating I have learned in all these years:

Don’t let perfect become the enemy of good.

And my personal saying about the ‘details’: Live to do better another day.

Salami is not as good as steak, but it will keep you eating on plan at least.

Keto desserts are not as good as steak, but they address a lot of body and psych and social issues while keeping you eating on plan at least.

The modern food supply is far lower in fats than keto finds ideal. This is enough of an effort to deal with on a daily basis. It is far more complicated to deal with on a per-meal basis.

And the important question is: how much does it matter? If you eat more than 20 carbs in 22 hours vs. in 35 hours, how much does it matter? If you eat one meal that is massive fats and another two meals that are mostly protein, how much does it matter? I’m not saying merely ‘matters’ because everything makes some kind of difference, but that doesn’t mean the difference is critical.

Does the person shift into and stay in fat-burning mode regardless? Are they satiated enough to make the eating plan workable and enjoyable so they stay on it? Does it give them sufficient nutrients in whatever timeframe? Does it make the eating plan uncomplicated enough that they can maintain it, without it becoming such a pain in the ass bother that they end up finally saying screw it, it’s so hard to do everything “right” and I just don’t have the gumption to care enough anymore?

Here’s a funny thing: Do you know that some people actually do their macros by WEEK, not by day, let alone by meal? Aside from keeping carbs “generally” under 20 – it varies, that macro is more of a 1.5 day fluctuating range – all their macros are weekly. And the amazing thing is – it works out for them.

Other people do it daily.

Other people do it by meal.

You do whatever works for you. Initially by meal might work for you. You might just want to keep a stick of butter with you at all times because you’re likely to need it in that case. :smiley:

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #18

I wish I could hit the like button multiple times for this.

#19

Me too!

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #20

Yes. And to be honest, I think 20 gm’s is just to play it safe. As I think some folks, some of the time, might even get by with 30 or 40 gms of carbs.

But just to reiterate, Keto doesn’t mean “zero carbs”.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #21

I completely disagree. For me, Keto is no more, than just keeping my carbs down to around 20 a day. I eat Keto bread, all kinds of artificial sweeteners, non-grass fed beef, farm raised Salmon… DIRTY all the way. Yet I feel great, and have lost 40 lbs. If I’m not doing Keto, by someone elses standards, eh. Who cares. What I’m doing, whatever you want to call it, seems to be working great for me :slight_smile:

(Greg) #22

I believe the concept that is hard to grasp around protein is that each individual is going to have varying needs. Lean body mass and activity levels are going to vary greatly from individual to individual. A male with a 210LB lean body mass and a male with a 120LB lean body mass will have very different required protein intakes to provide sufficient amino acids to maintain that muscle mass. This is compounded further when we taken into account activity levels. A sedentary person will have a much lower protein need than someone that is engaging in resistance training.

Protein, unlike carbs and fats, does not serve a primary role in providing fuel for our bodies. It is important to note that some individuals that are insulin resistant may be more prone to converting excess dietary protein into glucose, which is counter productive in a ketogenic diet.

I understand the desire for the math to work out cleanly and to apply a set ratio, but it is nearly impossible to sustain. It is too mentally taxing to plan every meal around hitting the perfect macros. I do track my food intake, primarily to hold myself accountable. I would guess my average is somewhere close to 5% carb, 30% protein, 65% fat. This has worked for me as I have got much closer to my ideal body weight, feel awesome, and frankly have really enjoyed the food that I eat.

In my profession, financial planning, clients and peers alike always try to push into a mold or formula. I.e. everyone that is X age with a net worth of Y should do ABC. The fact of the matter is everyone has different personal situations, goals, and concerns. These factors impact their financial plans. I see no reason to look a diet plan any differently.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

But, just to be clear, nor does it rule out “zero carbs.” Since the required minimum amount of carbohydrate in the human diet is 0 g/day. My understanding is that the Dudes picked the 20 g/day limit that we promote around here as being adequate to get virtually everyone into ketosis, except those who are highly insulin-resistant, and who will therefore need to restrict their intact even further.

This has turned out to be more nuanced than was formerly believed. The rate at which gluconeogenesis produces glucose from protein depends on a number of different factors and is tightly regulated by the body. Of more concern is that too great a protein intake inhibits ketogenesis. However, the effect of protein intake on hormones depends to a large extent on the amount of carbohydrate in the diet, which has a big effect on the ratio of insulin to glucagon. A high ratio favours anabolism and inhibits ketogenesis, whereas a low ratio promotes ketogenesis.

I should have mentioned in my earlier post that some people make a distinction between “keto” and “low-carb,” which I personally find essentially pointless. Any diet in which carb intake is low enough to permit ketogenesis, is a ketogenic diet, in my book, and any diet in which carb intake does not permit ketogenesis to occur is, in my book, by definition not a low-carb diet.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #24


(bulkbiker) #25

Well it can do… carnivore keeps me in ketosis quite happily…

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #26

Zero carb is keto, but keto is not zero carb.

#27

Yup, a diet that keeps you in ketosis. Many people go by the %'s, many people go by the grams of intake which can be drastically different for different people depending on their metabolism and lifestyle. Many people are just shy of being afraid of protein, many others have pretty high protein intake, some fill in the gaps with fat, some eat TONS of fat. There is not “official” way to do this. The “real” ketogenic diet is a medical intervention that nobody would want to do. What all us normies do is a variation of it, and we can all spend most or all of our time in ketosis. Individualize it to fit you perfectly, takes time but one size fits all doesn’t work. The general “this should work” guidelines to start people off are just that.

Of course we can, if it wasn’t for people playing around with it and testing limits many of us wouldn’t have the results or long term success we have. If we draw lines in the sand with rules that can’t be broken then guess what? That’s the day our way of eating becomes a DIET! We all agree that keto is a healthy way to eat, that puts less stress on our body and over all is our best bet for a longer and healthier life all we gotta do is aim for being in ketosis as much as possible. No need to take something simple and complicate it. That’s the Governments job.