Apple Cider Vinigar

podcast
(Jacob Wagner) #1

I remember @richard mentioning on the podcast that apple cider vinegar is mostly fat. I don’t recall which episode.

Searching on the internet I can’t seem to confirm that. Does someone have mor infomration about that?

–Jacob

Keto & then back to old habits
(Rhéal Cyr) #2

Hi Jacob4Jesus, I use apple cider vinegar 3 times a day and as far as I know it’s made from fermented apples so I can’t see where the fat comes from. On my Braggs ACV it’s maked 0 fats.

(VLC.MD) #3

Vinegar doesn’t feel fatty.
I think the fact that vinegar has a Chemical structure that is similar to saturated fat is more trivia than ketogeniclly useful info. Dr fung loves vinegar … I think because it reduces insulin resistance.

#4

It’s definitely not mostly fat (not fat at all, actually).
Lots of people take it in water and find that it reduces blood sugar a bit, and Richard mentions it for recipes- maybe that’s where you heard it in connection to fat?
It’s often abbreviated (“ACV”) so you can do a search on here to find out more - though a search for “apple” might do it as well since that’s not mentioned a lot on here except before “cider vinegar” :grin:

(Jo O) #5

It’s not a fat.
Might be a fatty acid. Biochemistry is a rabbit hole I do NOT need to research.

(KCKO, KCFO) #6

Found this in the ask Dr. Fung and Megan thread from Richard.

Vinegar … well it’s active component Acetic acid is actually the only purely saturated fat in our diet. Even lard is mostly monounsaturated fat. It’s also one of the few fats that is not a lipid, as it’s miscible with water (along with butyric, propionic, and formic acids).

#7

Thanks @collaroygal and now I really don’t understand this, and am with Jo that this is a rabbit hole that I don’t want to go down. Anyone want to break this down for those of us who don’t specialize in biochemistry? Generally fats - the way we think of them and use that word - are lipids.

Here’s something I found on Wikipedia
The acetyl group, formally derived from acetic acid, is fundamental to all forms of life. When bound to coenzyme A, it is central to the metabolism of carbohydrates and fats. Unlike longer-chain carboxylic acids (the fatty acids), acetic acid does not occur in natural triglycerides

I can’t imagine we can use vinegar as a “fat” in our macros and I think that’s what the OP was getting at -

(KCKO, KCFO) #8

I would agree, wouldn’t be on my macro list. But this does explain a bit about how it help with the break down of carbs and fats. Richard’s remarks were the first time I had heard of the saturated fat aspect of vinegar and it is just one component, the acetic acid.

(Jacob Wagner) #9

So here is what I have learned.

The episode was #30 and the discussion is around the 67 minute mark during the recipe segment.

@richard makes two differnet statements about acetic acid, which is the second largest part of all vinegar, behind water:

  1. That it is a type of carboxylic acid, and
  2. That is is a saturated fat.

From the link int he Show Notes (which I also have below) it is clear that the first is true. Acetic acid is indeed a type of carboxylic acid, as are all fatty acids. However, that doesn’t make it a fatty acid just because they share an umbrela category. This category (carboxylic acids) also includes amino acids, keto acids, and lactic acid.

I see nothing witten to clearly indicate that it is a fatty acid. However, I do see a commonality in the chemical structure between acetic acid and saturated fats:

The Structure of fatty acids

Saturated fats have a chemecal structure that looks liek this:

CH3(CH2)#COOH, Where # is the length of the chain.

If # is 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 then it creates a short-chain fatty acid. If it is 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12 then it is medium-chain, if it is 13-21 then it is long-chain, and if it is 22 or more then it is very-long-chain.

Here is the interesting part. There is no mention of a fatty acid where # is zero. However, if you insert zero then it becomes effectively CH3COOH. Any guess as to what that is?

[drum roll]… That is the structure of acetic acid (vinegar).

The TLDR version is that the acetic acid molecule is essentially a zero-length chain saturated fat.

However, I would like to hear from someone who knows about biochemistry to find out what that means (if anything) in our bodies.

Reference Links

–Jacob

(VLC.MD) #10

I was surprised ACV has more carbs than I thought. I’m sticking with regular vinegar.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

I don’t see how acetic acid counts as as a saturated fat; it seems to have too few hydrogen atoms. Of course, my last organic chem class was (cough)(cough) years ago. :slight_smile:

(Linda Culbreth) #12

The label on my organic ACV (Great Value from Wal-Mart) says zero carbs.

(Richard Morris) #13

Just so … and well researched.

Acetic acid is a zero lengths fatty acid (there’s no space for a double bond so it’s saturated), but it’s not a lipid. To be a lipid it apparently has to be hydrophobic.

So if you look up the USDA’s nutrient database for vinegar
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/302

You’ll find that 100g has
Energy 18 kCal
Protein 0g
Lipid 0g
Carbs 0.04g

If you are across your atwater values, you’ll know that the energy content of that food should be 0.04 x 4 = 0.16kCal. So where are those other magical calories hiding, since they are not lipids, glucose, or amino acids.

The answer is that this distilled vinegar is apparently 3%bv acetic acid (which is about normal), so there would be 3g of acetic acid in that 100g sample - and as a fat it would have an atwater value of 9kCal/g = 18 kCal.

It’s kind of a pointless trivia, but it’s the kind of thing that my brain likes to collect.

Two other interesting things;

  1. We rarely have fatty acids in our diet that are un-esterified, and usually they come bound to glycerol as Tri(acyl)glycerols. There is a synthetic triglyceride of acetate called Triacetin which is being tested as a food source for astronauts that can be made by bacteria on a mars mission. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triacetin]

  2. It’s the only truly 100% satrurated fat food in our food supply. So when a dietitian tells you all the eviles of saturated fat as she muches on her salad … remind her that her salad dressing had saturated fat and most of that is not in the oil.

(Solomom A) #14

Richard, 3g at 9kcal/g should be 27kcal, not 18kcal.

(VLC.MD) #15

I’ll try that one … thanks !

(Richard Morris) #16

oops Math … good thing I don’t have to rely upon my math degree.

2%pv … 2g

(Jacob Wagner) #17

Speaking of your brain collecting it :slight_smile: …

Do you know what pathway it uses to turn into energy? If it is hydrophobic and that small then I assume that it is absorbed easily into the blood through just about any membrane. Can it be used directly by our cells or does it need to go through the liver? If it needs to go to the liver then is it easily converted to ketones like SCTs are?

On a prectical level, it seems a little harsh to consume it directly as a fuel, that’s what makes it a good salad dressing at 3% solution. We can just take a spoonful of MCT oil, but a spoonful of pure acetic acid would not be safe for anyone in the room (even the spoon probably wouldn’t fare well).

–Jacob

(Richard Morris) #18

I would expect it absorbs easily across the gut wall and travels up the portal vein to the liver along with glucose and amino acids. And yes they would be a direct substrate for making acetyl-CoA (it’s got a head start over other fuel sources), and either fueling the krebs cycle, or being diverted into making ketones.

Yeah the strongest I have ever tried was Swedish ättika which can get up to 20% and is like rocket fuel that you have to dilute to use it for preservation or salad dressing.

(VLC.MD) #19

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I somehow have 3.
The artisan acv has 6 carbs per tablespoon - 5 sugar.
It also has the most sediment - i.e. You have to turn it over and shake it before you open it. I take it the sediment is little bits of … apple !

(Jacob Wagner) #20

I also notice that it has 25 kCal. That is acounted for by the carbs. So, there are no kCal accounted for from the acetic acid.

–Jacob