Anyone watched "what the health"

(Georgia) #41

The fact they have a plants based recipe page says a lot. And the fact there was a link to a clip with Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn tells me everything I need to know about the message this documentary is telling.

From the website - “we get to follow Kip Andersen as he looks into how we can prevent and reverse chronic diseases, and the reasons why America’s health organizations don’t want you do learn how to do so.”

I’ll stick with keto, thanks.

(Jim) #42

Has anyone seen this? What does the keto group think of this?

[merged topic - CarolT]

(Crow T. Robot) #43

Read on:

(Dustin Ewers) #45

Here’s a Doctor’s review of the movie. (Warning, more funny than informative)

(Mike Kunz) #46

My take on the first 30-45 minutes of it: its Agit-Prop for the Vegans and vegan advocates. Truth be told, Fathead was also pretty one-sided in its point of view. (But fathead at least showed a refutation!) A couple of propaganda themes popped up:

  1. Appeals to Authority ( ex: Harvard studies, World Health Organization).
  2. Confusion of dietary cholesterol/ dietary fat and serum levels.
  3. Presentation of results from observational studies as definitive RCT results.
  4. Reliance on the ick factor ( ‘cheese is coagulated milk pus’)
  5. Reliance on appeals to adversion to chemicals ‘strontium-90’, ‘dioxin’, ‘casein is like heroin’, ‘GMO’ etc
  6. Interviews with folks impacted by disease or environment ala ‘Roger and Me’ but are unconnected with the diet- health debate
  7. Linking diet issue with greenhouse effect.
  8. Marketing tricks ( show a skeleton eating cheese).

Some style items in common with ‘our side’

  1. Appeals against industry and regulatory agencies ( Big meat , big tobacco instead of ‘big sugar’)
  2. Gonzo journalism with the ADA, AHA, Susan Komen, etc.
  3. Appeals to emergency and crisis ( mostly environmental, not nec. diabetes)

I’d love to get some of the best minds in the business together and really sit down and run Randomized Controlled Trials of vegan diets versus keto and paleo diets and connect them with genetics; see what the better approach is. The only one I have seen is the A to Z study done at Stanford with Weight Loss.

(Jeff Ryan) #47

Whats your typical vegan/keto meals?

(Ryan Lindsey) #48

I saw the thumbnail, and I remember having the exact same jaw-dropped look on my face during the “science” portions of that movie. I wanted to describe the movie as being “90 minutes of cherry picking observational studies, and ignoring the field of endocrinology

EDIT: Fixed my incorrect phonetic spelling of endocrinology

(Thomas Yates) #49

i love keto, but I do have a bit of a cheese addiction, and maybe allergy. I do much better on keto when I don’t include dairy, except for butter. Even cream does weird things to me. I use coconut cream or milk instead.

(Jenn Monaghan) #50

Jimmy did a response today on Keto Talk:
[Keto Talk With Jimmy Moore & The Doc] 74: Jimmy Moore With The […] via @PodcastAddict

(Carey) #51

I have not but I did listen to Jimmy Moore’s KetoTalk today that addresses many claims of the film. I thought he did a great job and kept alarmist emotionality out of his approach


I agree this is a much better approach. Too much meanness and mocking in the "actual doctor’ rebuttal. Anyone sitting on the fence will just think he’s an asshole.

(ianrobo) #53

Yes all you can do to rebut this rubbish is to present counter evidence and the proper science and not base it on studies that relied on recall of food eaten from 2 years ago !!

Jimmy did a great job in each section and even at the end agreed with some common aims both Vegans and Keto do realise - mainly whole foods, real foods and the evils of processed food.

Lets be positive and start with where we agree !

(Kate) #54

Haha I did the same thing. As soon as it started talking about high carbs I turned it off. Maybe a bit biased here but low fat, high carb did nothing but make me fatter and sicker.

(Jeff Ryan) #55

Yep I haven’t really heard of anyone achieving losing weight on a high carb diet. I cant even imagine starving yourself to death just to lose weight.


I have. There are a lot of people who do loose weight on high carb diets (actually, one of the points mentioned in Dr. Lustig’s now famous Sugar: The Bitter Truth talk was that at the same time the Atkins diet was popular in the U.S., a high carb diet was popular in Japan, and both seemed to work fairly well, but they also both eliminated (non-glucose) sugars).

In any case, a lot of research that does compare the diets does show that both work to some extent and for some amount of time for weight loss. Everything else is up in the air, but in general there are ways to construct a high carb diet that does allow at least some people to loose weight and maintain that loss for some amount of time. But, similar to keto, it appears to be tricky and not at all like a SAD diet. Keto seems a lot better to me for a number of reasons, but the opposite seems like it can work, at least for specifically weight loss, for some amount of time.

(Griffin Mekelburg) #57

I completely agree with you, we need more well-rounded studies over a lengthy period for us to have a better image of what really works. I will say however the mental differences seem to be indistinguishable but that is purely annecdotal. I think it comes down to not what will lose you weight, but what is sustainable. No reason to go to a diet just to cut weight and then shock your body switching to something else. Diet should not change much over time, so when science shows us which seem to be the most sustainable and promote the most longevity we will have a winner. I currently am leaning towards a very low carb diet because it has been the only diet to stick and really show results, again annecdotal :slight_smile:

What I do not like though is how they push science that was proven to be falsified and base almost everything off of it.

(Jeff Ryan) #58

Thanks for the input. Yes I’m sure carb only diet would achieve weight loss. Would like to see monitoredstudies and see the effects after jumping on a keto and high carb diets. I personally don’t know anyone that’s achieved weight loss through a high carb deficit diet.

(Ben) #59

Nina Teicholz’s view:


Well, carb only diet would probably achieve death within a year. I’m not familiar with anyone even advocating a carb only diet, only high carb diets that recommend very low levels of protein and fat (to supply the necessary amino acids and fatty acids our bodies are unable to make from other things).

(Crow T. Robot) #61

This is worth a look.