Another Carnivore Thread


(Kristen Ann) #1795

Please explain the science here…

Still not understanding this… Also PKD is carnivore… so what carnivores are you speaking for exactly?

I see your point lol, but I was thinking more on the lines of allergies may have a cumulative effect when you have underlying inflammation from diet.

Thanks for the response.


#1796

yea I get what you mean about allergies from like plant toxin accumulation in the body causing inflammation and more…thing is for me I know I improved a gazillion percent when I dropped all plants from my menu, but seasonal pollen just effects me on direct contact kinda thing. So yea I see what you mean about inflammation and issues from internal possibly food intake allergy situations? Other than eat plant, get icky…like some eat dairy and get runny eyes and nose and gut troubles, but without doing allergy tests to everything I guess a lot of that could be up for grabs kinda.

on the ketones, we know if we go all in carnivore you are burning only ketones. you are a ketone burner and not any glucose is taken in, even in small form so longer one stays on plan and eat as much meat as you need and desire, you could easily not be in ‘this lower ketosis’ burning mode. Plus our ketones build, dump, change and are way different longer we stay on plan then someone starting new into this and burning off tons of a common ketone that is a normal process. So if you want to control your ketosis and have your ketones in a certain area at all times, the PKD is a 2:1 ratio that puts emphasis on fat intake vs. protein intake and with a lower protein intake you can keep your ketone levels to a controlled ‘in low ketosis’ numbers vs. just eating a normal zc menu and not giving ketones the time of day. I hope that makes some sense in what I am saying LOL

Fat adapted on keto while still ingesting plants and maybe sweeteners etc. will never equal fat adaption in being zc with absolutely no plant intake and no fake sweetener intake. Keto food is not zc plan food. Those differences mean when one drops keto and goes full on zc you can find you have to absolutely adapt thru again and can easily have all kinds of adaption troubles. Even small plant material in our menus when dropped can be seen as rough thru adaption for some and they do get effects. Plus oxalate dumping and more will come into play when you go even from a low carb intake with keto to zc. Your body will have to fat adapt even more when all plants and fake sweeteners if eaten are dropped. Your meat/fat intake only will mean your body will adapt thru again and will hit a new level of fat adaption. That is kinda what I am saying on this one.

I love chatting this stuff :slight_smile: It is good to just do you ya know, just feel what the food you eat does for you or against you and then we can find our right path to follow. That is what I did. I found all the meat and seafood that works for me, what fat content I require at any given time and just listen to my body and let it happen and just cruise along :wink:


#1797

Hi guys. Now that I wrote a too long comment I want to abandon, I write this. If anyone has problem with my totally not carnivore woe (I try and I need even less meat for it now than in the beginning but my circumstances are problematic), maybe don’t read this. It’s connected as I try to do carnivore, it’s just a tad tricky and I fell off the wagon a lot. But I don’t give up. I always will have carnivore and especially carnivore-ish days, they are the best ones. I still can’t have only/mostly them but maybe I will find a way.

@David_Stilley: Losing fat is something else again, we don’t need keto for that (it often helps a lot, of course. or not, we are different). Lots of people lose fat quickly eating much carbs and not being fat adapted. The energy must come from somewhere, after all and satiation is individual (and some people are willing to be hungry a lot anyway). And out fat is there to be burned if needed, a normal body does that fine.

But I think too that fat adapted is fat adapted. Not like I know much about fat adaptation, I just enjoy it. But it’s connected with very low carb intake and keto has it too.

@Fangs, you wrote it’s different but didn’t explain why. What does plant matter do with fat adaptation? The body gets little carbs from the outside, it must get fat adapted… Plants may have zillion effects on our body but what it is regarding fat adaptation?

Hmmm, adaptation troubles. What does it mean if someone has zero adaptation problems like me? (I will totally try carnivore longer term as soon as I can get enough and proper meat, I only have access to smoked pork and some fish. Some people have problems later and I am curious. And quite sure I wouldn’t have problems. It’s not my style. But I can’t possibly know for sure.) I did things gradually and still think fat was my primary fuel all my life (probably. I didn’t track but I ate VERY fatty, carbs had little chance to be number one on most days as they triggered hunger and that triggered eating more fat and fatty protein). Or is it simply individual? There are more resilient and quite healthy people and that’s it? Maybe I never will know much about these…

What can sweeteners (the ones without net carbs) do with fat adaptation? They don’t provide usable carbs either. I don’t know how they can interfere, probably in various interesting ways. They seem to interfere with fat-loss too and not just because they make one eating more. That’s a pretty weird reaction to me.
Sweeteners are about the first things I allow when I can’t do carnivore due to lack of meat. They don’t harm me and I can stay close to carnivore (more like keeping my net carbs super low, that’s what is important for me, after all though I don’t plan to eat flax either and it barely have any net carbs. still. it’s in the past). Gluten is similar but the other plant matter just cause problems if the amount isn’t super tiny. It’s surely very individual… I try not to eat sweeteners and gluten but it’s not like I have better options until I can get meat (and maybe even later, I don’t know if I can handle much meat for long. but it probably wouldn’t be a problem if I had enough variety).

I bought pork today, I already run out of it days ago, I missed it and my days became chaotic, I couldn’t become satiated easily even on my 13 egg day (personal record, I guess). The little shop of the pig farm is very nice, I socialize there :slight_smile: The lady is lovely and love their pigs. She eats meat only once or twice per week but started to eat less carbs because she realized her body loves that. I will talk with her about this topic more, there wasn’t time for it now. Or ask more about the guy who sell rabbits… Oh well, we will have rabbits in the end of summer from the usual source. Fruit season started already, I surely won’t have long carni periods. I think about doing at least “every second day is carnivore” as it lowers my net carb intake therefore my calories and it’s what matters to me (and a lot of other things, I don’t want to supplement magnesium but I probably need more meat for that. I wonder if just eating more fish would be enough).
But if I can do it, I want longer periods of carnivore-ish (if it’s not a single day, I will add tiny amounts of plant matter) as I never handled alternating days so well. I like stability. And I don’t need to eat fruits every second day, no matter how much I have in my garden. I changed. I am actually quite curious about my fruit consumption this year. It won’t be much, it’s clear but we will see what exactly will happen (and how many edible-even-alone fruits are left… stupid modern fruits are insanely sugary. though dairy shocked me more. my beloved heavy cream and sour cream aren’t too sugary to me, fortunately. heavy cream is for desserts in my life so that could be much sweeter without problems. but I dislike overly sweetness in not sweet dishes. I probably will stop eating vegetable soups even off keto, they are too sweet, even the low-carb vegetables. and I don’t want vegetables anyway. I want soups but I have no proper meat to make good soups. fine, I will use just eggs).


(Not a cow) #1798

Agreed, protein does affect insulin, and it also makes sense that this is a contributor to lower ketone levels, but I am more of the opinion that the insulin spikes from protein are healthy, and fairly low because I am still in ketosis and likely burning fat and not storing. I think I felt better with higher ketones as well but the cravings were too much for me, to stay away from bad carbs. Carnivore so far is helping with this, but still too early to tell. As I don’t think my body is fully adapted yet with carnivore


#1799

what I am trying to say about fat adaption is the correlation with keeping carbs in a menu like on a keto plan, even tho very low is still no zero and then the ‘big picture’ of those effects. Yes Keto people can fat adapt, but they also are eating way different than a total zero carb person. They can be very strict and clean eating like into the low maybe 10g or have a 20g day or even go a bit higher like into 40 g or have an all out ‘cheat day’ and play with carbs and they also may allow fake sweeteners or protein drinks with whey and more and then you got veg which has low level toxins to cause inflammation in our bodies and more…so a keto person may jump around the glocouse level intake etc and then when one goes into zc you come into a new fat adaption phase truly. And with new fat adaption we go thru other adaption also…even those coming off a 10-20g keto plan into carnivore are surprised sometimes by what adaption they still have to handle as they transition. And if one is limiting protein and fat on keto etc…when one comes into zc as eat all the meat/seafood you need, your fat intake etc can monkey with you as we transition, etc…so that is what I am saying.

keto is not and never will be the same on a zc plan. zc is a critter all its own because we do no carbs. no plant material. we do no fake sweeteners and we don’t go off that mark. We don’t play a carb jumping game on a daily basis of any kind. And when no plants etc come into play we do oxalate dumping and more to a higher level with changing inflammation in our bodies and more as we heal from keeping carbs at bay.

Yes there is a day once a month or whatever some of us zc people might eat something small but it is never a larger type situation (if one is committed to this plan) in that we aren’t around the board being some glucose burn and then ketone burn etc. We stay ketone burn all the time. A very rare intake of plant or fake sweetener or alcohol or something like that isn’t a daily jump and down of carb intake like a keto plan. And all carbs effect our bodies even if lower, hence when one comes into zc even from a tight low carb keto plan, they usual get some more adaption of all kinds hitting them. I luckily got a smaller hit on adaption cause I stayed like 10-15g total carbs all the time while jumping in and out of zc as I was learning and leaning toward this plan. Never saying keto plan isn’t fab for many cause it is, but it isn’t an apples to oranges comparison to a zc plan ever. There are no true comparisons in a plan that has 0 carb to one that does and has possible other choices like keto desserts, protein shakes, and that kind of choices.

so that is kinda what I was trying to say about fat adaption and other adaption will come into play again as one hits into full on true zc and holds that plan tight.


#1800

good post Moo

and yea it takes more time than one thinks truly. we all are adapting and dumping toxins and healing internally and a lot of that healing we never truly see but can ‘feel a bit’ and know we aren’t quite there yet.

luckily me being years into this plan I am there :slight_smile: I truly know me inside and out on food hit for a day I require, I feel wonderful, I only know I ‘go off’ when I get very not hungry, eat less meat and fat and then find myself kinda craving things cause I didn’t eat as well as I should and all that jazz LOL

congrats on your lbs. down also…shows your body is healing and letting loose of some of that weight that is a symptom of our unhealthy body…cool!

protein and fat is all the physical body must have for total survival. water included of course :slight_smile: not one carb, but carbs/glucose burn is to me our backup survival system to live on as we hunt and find our protein/fat we need to true health.


(Kristen Ann) #1801

I agree they are different.

Again, I’m not zero carb because I’m consuming dairy and shellfish.

But I don’t agree fat adaption is different for carnivores, zc, or keto people. Sorry. I don’t see how efficiently burning fat for fuel is different for those consuming 0 carbs, 10 carbs, or 20 carbs, etc.


(Linda ) #1802

I Think what Fangs is referring to is the degree of fat adaption is different…example somone on paleo has fat adaption too, but not to the degree that keto does and keto although we are fully fat adapted if your carbs are low enough you still may not receive all benifits of going zc and what they get throwing away those remaining carbs…but eating zc also takes time for the body to adjust just as it did going into keto even if you had been low carb.


(Kristen Ann) #1803

I agree with all of this. Benefits that you may get from going carnivore include lower oxalate intake, increased availability of minerals & nutrients, etc. I also agree that there is a major adjustment your body goes through when going carnivore from keto.

But I don’t see how fat adaption is different on carnivore than it is keto. My body already knows how to use fat as fuel. Is the process of using fat somehow different on carnivore than keto?


(Linda ) #1804

(Volek, 2011; Volek, 2016). Whereas fat adaptation can occur to different degrees and across a spectrum dependent on the degree of carb restriction, keto-adaptation represents a more comprehensive reshaping of many physiologic systems. Keto-adaptation only happens when carbs are restricted to a point that induces sustained nutritional ketosis. The nuances here are subtle, but meaningful. For example, moderately restricting carbs (e.g., adaptation to a Paleo diet) may induce some degree of fat-adaptation and perceived benefits, but falls short of maximizing fat oxidation and producing positive health outcomes specifically linked to nutritional ketosis. A keto-adapted person is by definition fully fat-adapted, but a fat-adapted person may not be keto-adapted.


(Kristen Ann) #1805

Yes, my point. I am fully fat-adapted coming from 21 months of keto diet. Are you saying carnivore is more than “fully” fat-adapted?


(Linda ) #1806

No I’m saying that the degree of adaption even though your in nutritional full fat adaption… going to 0 carbs may alter enough to be notably different than somone eating 20-25 carbs


(Kristen Ann) #1807

Ok I see what you’re saying in regards to degree on a scale. But I just don’t think carnivore requires a greater degree of fat adaption than a ketogenic diet. My body knows how to use fat for fuel. I don’t see how reducing my carb intake from 20 g to 0 g requires enhanced fat utilization when I burn through carbs extremely fast and am already ‘fully’ fat adapted. Keto diet is the based on the principal of using fat for fuel. Carnivore is a type of ketogenic diet. Not trying to be argumentative… but I don’t see the logic here.


(Ron) #1808

@Azi
While I have no proof, I agree with you from my logical side. I also have to wonder about the small amount of carbs that are consumed as carnivore such as in eggs. It seems logical to me that if there are levels of adaption, the line is not so fine as to be that close in carb intake. 10 / 20 / even 30 would not define a level of fat adapted??


(Linda ) #1809

Yeah I don’t know how noticeable it would be either but removing all the remaining carbs/sweetners just may be a notably feel different phase that is being attributed to fat adaption as well…don’t know but Phinney did say its based on the degree of carb restriction so maybe it does go further…


(Linda ) #1810

yeah I think if there is a scale of degree to fat adaption logically its slightly different all the way along that scale


(Kristen Ann) #1811

I don’t know… if I’m in ketosis all the time and am still consuming carbs from eggs, shellfish, and dairy, I don’t see how I would need a greater degree of fat adaption eating this way. But I guess I will find out the longer I stay on carnivore.

I would think what defines levels of fat adaption has to do with the amount of time you’re in ketosis and how ‘trained’ your mitochondria are at using fat for fuel. Is that time really lengthier for a carb intake of 10 vs 30 g? It seems like too fine of a line to me.


(Ron) #1812

@kaclp
I also agree with that. So now we have 2 variables that affect adaption. Another reason that it seems questionable to define a line as tightly as 0 carnivore vs 20 keto. Could be a reason for a roundy round discussion about it lol. :rofl:


(Linda ) #1813

Ultimately at the end of the day your burning fat is it like vechiles that burn different lvls of octanes but all still burn petrol… i think whats most important is that you are happy and content and its working for you…for some thats keto some its carnivore some its somewhere in between…but if its working and you can stick to it that’s winning in my book…


(Kristen Ann) #1814

What started this conversation is the issues I’m having transitioning to carnivore. Fangs suggested it was because of a lack of fat adaption. I do understand that there is a lot going on with oxalate dumping, digestive changes, etc… but just don’t think it is related to fat adaption–as I’m “fully” fat adapted :wink: I plan on sticking it out until at least Sept, so I will see how I adapt and if I get even more efficient at burning fat for fuel.