Adding back fruit ('targeted keto') + honey

#8

Fair you well brother, on your chosen path.

I reserve the right to call BS,

(Edith) #9

Honey contains 23-41% fructose. According to Dr. Robert Lustig, it is the fructose that goes straight to our livers which why it doesn’t raise blood sugar as much as glucose. But, that is also why fructose contributes to fatty liver and metabolic disfunction.

Whole fruit while it contains fructose, it has the added benefit of fiber whereas honey does not. Does that make any difference in the pathway of the fructose? :woman_shrugging:

I’m curious, what is the purpose of eating the honey? What is the purported benefit of it?

#10

in the linked study people receiving artificial fructose clearly did worse then those given honey. I do not know why that would happen. there were clearly other differences. for me personally it is mainly about the added carbs and as a natural sweetener around weight lifting and to replenish glycogen stores.

Honey consumed for 15 days decreased cholesterol (7%), LDL-C (1%), TG (2%), CRP (7%), homocysteine (6%), and PGL (6%), and increased HDL-C (2%). In patients with hypertriglyceridemia, artificial honey increased TG, while honey decreased TG. In patients with hyperlipidemia, artificial honey increased LDL-C, while honey decreased LDL-C. Honey decreased cholesterol (8%), LDL-C (11%), and CRP (75%) after 15 days. In diabetic patients, honey compared with dextrose caused a significantly lower rise of PGL.

(Betsy) #11

My brother has been low carb for quite some time, had leg cramps in the beginning that he used magnesium to deal with.

This summer he started to get them in his thigh and not his calves, and first was using a lot of salt but then tried honey, and it is helping with the cramping.

My brother is thin and a lean mass hyper-responder.

(Betsy) #12

@lamehack, can you expand on what type of fruit you eat and do you eat it once a day or throughout the day.

#13

a lot of bananas, some pears, dried dates, oranges
a bit of orange juice/apple juice
honey/maple syrup.
TBH i eat it randomly throughout the day whenever I feel it. making sure my protein intake is adequate, mainly through red meat/some chicken, and hydrolyzed protein whey shakes, with milk or coconut water as the base
what I noticed that is very hard to ‘overeat’ on fruit, in comparison to junk food/candy, so the intake is naturally limited. my appetite would be slightly larger then on pure carnivore, but not by much
a typical day would be 3 bananas, 2 pears, 5 dried dates, 2 oranges, 2 ounces maple syrup, 2 ounces honey
my digestive system feels great too and I never have this bloated/tired feeling after a meal
what is interesting as mentioned in the first post, I still do have blood ketones, at roughly the same level as on pure keto, so one could argue I am technically in ketosis.

(Betsy) #14

Thank you, and good for you! The added variety of fruit makes the diet so much better.

I can’t handle starches but I can handle orange juice, still have a hard time with cellulose. But I’ll keep trying.

#15


lamehack

16m

a lot of bananas, some pears, dried dates, oranges

Sugar.

#16

I noticed the opposite when eating a few kinds (oh I remember the day when I bought 500g dried dates and really tried not to eat it all… I ate it all. but 1kg apple in one sitting, 5 bananas in one sitting or 3kg watermelon in a few hours was trivial too) so it must be highly individual. Fruit makes me hungry and it’s lovely so it was very easy to eat a ton.
I changed since, I couldn’t handle that insane amount of sugar and I trained myself as well so I don’t do that anymore. But I tested watermelon (a fruit I don’t like so much, it was just fun occasionally but I pretty much banned it when I went low-carb) last year and I still was unable to stop before 1000g in one sitting. (I got better this year but I have plenty of carnivore-ish days since years and it changed me).

My SO is thriving on high-carb and needs fruit all the time but I really would worry about his fructose intake if he ate a lot of it. But he doesn’t :slight_smile:

Each to their own, I always say but excessive sugar especially fructose is bad for everyone as far as I know. I don’t know what that amount is I admit. But it would mess up the plans of many of us if we add a ton of calories from fruit only! I did hear about people who get satiated by fruit. And better than when I quenched my hunger eating 5 bananas. It lasted for an hour, it was useful as I went home during that time but it surely made me overeating on that day.

Interesting, I handle starches loads better than sugar. Even a little fruit alone can feel bad. I always eat some sausage after fruit :slight_smile: Except after really tiny amounts.
I liked eating 6 different fruits a day on keto too (one was typically banana, one of my favs. it comforted me as a newbie ketoer who had to painfully drop the amount of vegs) but they contained a few carbs in total :wink: I needed my carbs elsewhere and I needed my carbs low too.

I can’t really imagine you being in ketosis with a huge amount of sugar but I won’t argue, it doesn’t really affect me. Do what work for you, I never had against people eating high-carb if it worked for them.
I don’t really care about ketosis myself, I just want to feel good and get benefits. It happens to be extremely low non-animal net carbs (most of the time, at least) so I must be in ketosis most of the time but that’s not the point.

#17

Great to hear you found what works for you. I would be interested to know your age or at least age range and why you initially decided to do Keto and Carnivore? Being fat adapted means you can do both IMHO. My total carb count varies depending on level of activity. On workout days it is easily 150+ grams of carbs with no adverse effects on weight gain and definitely gains in performance. As I get older I have found my need for protein has increased. I probably eat a more balance healthy lower carb diet most of the time with some veggies and fruit and IF thrown in occasionally as well as some feasting. I never went to Carnivore as I did not saw the need for it in my case.

#18

male 44. been hitting gym consistently for 1.5-2y now and have been seeing really good muscle gains. I have to admit that I am on TRT which I believe was the culprit to improving my health overall in addition to diet.
my journey started with paleo. later on I jumped on the keto train but never really felt good on it. i tried various forms on keto ‘dirty’, with lots of ‘keto’ friendly snacks etc, which are a recipe for disaster ofc.
the only diet which really worked for me keto wise, was pure carnivore, since it killed all my cravings.
but it was not sustainable long term, as much as I like meat, i felt like puking looking at yet another rib-eye. I never had cramps or anything that sorts, but always felt something is missing, but adding any starches, like rice and potatoes ramped by cravings big time, and I still need to loose BF, went down from 30% to 25% already, with significant lean mass gains.
initially when heard saladinos approach I was like this guy is insane…well all that sugar.
but after doing some self experimentation and research I am more and more convinced that not all sugar is equal (similar to all fat not being equal, and while for ex. seed oil are ‘keto’, they are poison for the most)
you can clearly overdo it (as you can on fat) and this is something to watch out for.

I just did a blood reading 2h after a carb heavy meal, with 30g of honey, 2 bananas, 20g of maple syrup.
my ketones registered at 0.4 and my glucose at 111
after starches or regular sugar this would be more 0/140. i think this is a good indicator that I am metabolically healthy and still have no issues burning fat.
no doubt heavy weight lifting is a contributor here.
I don’t do any IF since this is counterproductive to building lean mass and I think the benefits are overblown apart from a calorie restriction that this bring
my blood markers have been excellent too, with LDL on the high side, which most here probably know is not a big deal
I am fairly excited what the next 6 months will bring, and I won’t hesitate to admit I was wrong and change course again

#19

Is anyone else bored?

#20

me of your pointless comments for sure. hint you can ‘unwatch’ this thread

#21

LOL!

I like you, but you are boring.

#22

i have no particular feelings for you, neither positive or negative. you are neither boring or interesting. every forum out there seems to have people of those who just about inject themselves into everything typically not contributing much to the discussion. typically this is a sign of low self esteem

#23

Whatever you think bro.

I wish you all the best.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #24

The problem, however, is that the fructose in honey is a metabolic poison, no matter what other good things might be in the honey. And glucose can be converted into fructose, as well, under certain circumstances, adding to the burden on the liver. Fructose and ethanol are both damaging to mitochondria, which are not just powerhouses of the cells, but are also regulators of all kinds of cellular processes, including growth and apoptosis (cell death).

In fact, it has been shown that cancer is caused by mitochondrial damage, not mutations in the nuclear DNA. Experiments in which mutated nuclei from cancer cells show that the cells remain non-cancerous, whereas cells with mitochondria from cancer cells but unmutated nuclear DNA become cancerous. So it appears that the genetic damage to cancer cells is a downstream effect from damage to the mitochondria.

So mitochondrial damage in the liver leads to fatty liver, steatosis, eventually cirrhosis and (if unchecked) death. It also causes insulin-resistance in the liver, which leads to metabolic disease: gout, Type II diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s disease, mental and neuromotor diseases from damage to brain metabolism, hypertension, and a host of other problems.

#25

there is no evidence for this, quiet the opposite. here is couple studies




to name a few. while there is plenty of studies showing that fructose is toxic in my basic review they focus on artificial sugars.
all studies have to be taken with a grain of salt, as the result they produce is as good as the data they receive, and human studies are quiet difficult to do as you know.
humans have been eating fruit and honey for a long time, and while people lived shorter in the past, due to sanitary conditions, hard labor etc, cancer and obesity was not that prevalent back in the day.
you look even at primitive tribes today, they do consume large amounts of natural sugars and have no metabolic health issues.
the link of natural sugar toxicity to cancer and metabolic health simply does not exist. you are deriving one from the other, but I still have to see good evidence for this.
at the very basic level, blood markers would have to show a negative association and they just don’t and my initial tests confirm this. you would have to see other markers going bad, like the ALT/AST ratio for example and this just does not happen.
as stated earlier 1 solid tests for metabolic health is fasting insulin and I would challenge everyone to do a month on pure carnivore/red/wild meat, get tested, and then do a month adding natural sugars and test again. I could bet that your insulin will go down
cancer is yet another story, as you known the medical industry is dead on making the most money of cancer patients and not cure anyone, and all the research around cancer is heavily geared towards patenting yet another big pharma chemical they can cash on. while I would agree that western diet is to blame for the most, it most likely is an interplay of junk foods (seed oils, sugars), environmental factors, drugs, vaccines etc.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

Au contraire, the research into the toxic effects of fructose on mitochondria is well-established. The effect of overwhelming the metabolic pathway in the liver that handles ethanol and fructose was shown by research done twenty or thirty years ago. The only difference is that fatty liver disease is now being caused by sugar in the diet and is no longer seen only in alcoholics. Robert Lustig and his team at UCSF demonstrated that liver damage is caused by fructose in a pilot study on obese children, in which their fructose consumption was replaced with extra glucose. Within ten days, the subjects’ liver numbers had returned to normal, and their livers were no longer fatty.

The effects of mitochondrial damage in the brain have also been described in the literature recently, and many researchers are now convinced that most, if not all, mental illness and most, if not all, motor-neuron diseases are the result of metabolic dysfunction in the brain. Researchers into Alzheimer’s disease have now taken to describing it as Type III diabetes, to emphasise the connexion between damage from glucose and hyperinsulinaemia, and Chris Palmer at Harvard has published a book describing his clinical experiences treating mental patients with a sugar-free ketogenic diet.

Fructose has also been shown to have effects on the brain that are very similar to those of alcohol, both in the long-term damage it does and in the addictive effect on vulnerable individuals (as with alcohol, about 20% of the population is vulnerable to fructose addiction, though it’s not the same 20% as those who are vulnerable to alcoholism).

(B Creighton) #27

There is some scientific support for growing muscle with some carbs. I did quite well doing this my first year of keto. Indeed, pushing insulin up to supraphysiological levels after working out can help push more creatine and protein into the muscles and help with muscle development. However, I only did this for the first meal after working out. First I would have a protein smoothie which had about 20 gr of carbs in plant based protein, but I also added whey and I spiked the plant protein with some luecine or BCAAs. I used a little xylitol which will also push up the glucose and insulin a little. The idea was to limit the insulin spike to that period and not the rest of the day.

My wife has bought a bucket of raw honey from a local bee keeper with the belief that it will help her heal her gut. I will have to wait to see results. Fructose is not a generally healthy sugar. It is OK in the small amounts from whole fruit when mediated with the fiber, and it looks like you are def approaching or exceeding that limit. More than that will not be beneficial and may cause visceral fat gain. Fructose is not helping your pumps or putting on muscle. Nevertheless, some fructose is necessary in the body, and when completely lacking from the diet, the body will turn on its fructose making pathway because sucrose is a vital part of ATP.