Adding back fruit ('targeted keto') + honey



I like you, but you are boring.


i have no particular feelings for you, neither positive or negative. you are neither boring or interesting. every forum out there seems to have people of those who just about inject themselves into everything typically not contributing much to the discussion. typically this is a sign of low self esteem


Whatever you think bro.

I wish you all the best.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

The problem, however, is that the fructose in honey is a metabolic poison, no matter what other good things might be in the honey. And glucose can be converted into fructose, as well, under certain circumstances, adding to the burden on the liver. Fructose and ethanol are both damaging to mitochondria, which are not just powerhouses of the cells, but are also regulators of all kinds of cellular processes, including growth and apoptosis (cell death).

In fact, it has been shown that cancer is caused by mitochondrial damage, not mutations in the nuclear DNA. Experiments in which mutated nuclei from cancer cells show that the cells remain non-cancerous, whereas cells with mitochondria from cancer cells but unmutated nuclear DNA become cancerous. So it appears that the genetic damage to cancer cells is a downstream effect from damage to the mitochondria.

So mitochondrial damage in the liver leads to fatty liver, steatosis, eventually cirrhosis and (if unchecked) death. It also causes insulin-resistance in the liver, which leads to metabolic disease: gout, Type II diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s disease, mental and neuromotor diseases from damage to brain metabolism, hypertension, and a host of other problems.


there is no evidence for this, quiet the opposite. here is couple studies

to name a few. while there is plenty of studies showing that fructose is toxic in my basic review they focus on artificial sugars.
all studies have to be taken with a grain of salt, as the result they produce is as good as the data they receive, and human studies are quiet difficult to do as you know.
humans have been eating fruit and honey for a long time, and while people lived shorter in the past, due to sanitary conditions, hard labor etc, cancer and obesity was not that prevalent back in the day.
you look even at primitive tribes today, they do consume large amounts of natural sugars and have no metabolic health issues.
the link of natural sugar toxicity to cancer and metabolic health simply does not exist. you are deriving one from the other, but I still have to see good evidence for this.
at the very basic level, blood markers would have to show a negative association and they just don’t and my initial tests confirm this. you would have to see other markers going bad, like the ALT/AST ratio for example and this just does not happen.
as stated earlier 1 solid tests for metabolic health is fasting insulin and I would challenge everyone to do a month on pure carnivore/red/wild meat, get tested, and then do a month adding natural sugars and test again. I could bet that your insulin will go down
cancer is yet another story, as you known the medical industry is dead on making the most money of cancer patients and not cure anyone, and all the research around cancer is heavily geared towards patenting yet another big pharma chemical they can cash on. while I would agree that western diet is to blame for the most, it most likely is an interplay of junk foods (seed oils, sugars), environmental factors, drugs, vaccines etc.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #26

Au contraire, the research into the toxic effects of fructose on mitochondria is well-established. The effect of overwhelming the metabolic pathway in the liver that handles ethanol and fructose was shown by research done twenty or thirty years ago. The only difference is that fatty liver disease is now being caused by sugar in the diet and is no longer seen only in alcoholics. Robert Lustig and his team at UCSF demonstrated that liver damage is caused by fructose in a pilot study on obese children, in which their fructose consumption was replaced with extra glucose. Within ten days, the subjects’ liver numbers had returned to normal, and their livers were no longer fatty.

The effects of mitochondrial damage in the brain have also been described in the literature recently, and many researchers are now convinced that most, if not all, mental illness and most, if not all, motor-neuron diseases are the result of metabolic dysfunction in the brain. Researchers into Alzheimer’s disease have now taken to describing it as Type III diabetes, to emphasise the connexion between damage from glucose and hyperinsulinaemia, and Chris Palmer at Harvard has published a book describing his clinical experiences treating mental patients with a sugar-free ketogenic diet.

Fructose has also been shown to have effects on the brain that are very similar to those of alcohol, both in the long-term damage it does and in the addictive effect on vulnerable individuals (as with alcohol, about 20% of the population is vulnerable to fructose addiction, though it’s not the same 20% as those who are vulnerable to alcoholism).

(B Creighton) #27

There is some scientific support for growing muscle with some carbs. I did quite well doing this my first year of keto. Indeed, pushing insulin up to supraphysiological levels after working out can help push more creatine and protein into the muscles and help with muscle development. However, I only did this for the first meal after working out. First I would have a protein smoothie which had about 20 gr of carbs in plant based protein, but I also added whey and I spiked the plant protein with some luecine or BCAAs. I used a little xylitol which will also push up the glucose and insulin a little. The idea was to limit the insulin spike to that period and not the rest of the day.

My wife has bought a bucket of raw honey from a local bee keeper with the belief that it will help her heal her gut. I will have to wait to see results. Fructose is not a generally healthy sugar. It is OK in the small amounts from whole fruit when mediated with the fiber, and it looks like you are def approaching or exceeding that limit. More than that will not be beneficial and may cause visceral fat gain. Fructose is not helping your pumps or putting on muscle. Nevertheless, some fructose is necessary in the body, and when completely lacking from the diet, the body will turn on its fructose making pathway because sucrose is a vital part of ATP.


I do a TKD/CKD Hybrid, agree on your points all day long, including the improved Thyroid values, mine were getting really bad (and showing) and now optimal again.

One tweak though, and it really depends on what you’re truly going for, but you really want high glycemic carbs for TKD, like Dextrose or Cyclic Dextrin. You want the rocket fuel effect, but also want it to be gone when you’re done working out.

I did a Hybrid of the two because I wanted that, but I also wanted glycogen in the tanks not only for the better pumps, but the stamina as I do a lot of long workouts.


[quote=“scaperdude, post:27, topic:120402”]
My wife has bought a bucket of raw honey from a local bee keeper with the belief that it will help her heal her gut.
A family member used Manuka Honey from New Zealand to heal her gut successfully. Do not overdo it.
Food is more than just macros.


i have a bag of pure dextrose. i tried that approach initially. it did not made me feel very good and I had bad cravings. today 2h after a meal chicken and fruit honey worth 100g carbs, i measured glucose and ketones. glucose was 80. ketones 0.3. i could not believe and retested with virtually same results. that was 4-5h past a heavy weight lifting session. i think the muscle are high consumer of carbs and scoop it up really quick. i never got those results with starches. based on those readings it would indicate that all glucose from food essentially disappeared. so still in a mild ketosis, but this is a good sign since it would indicate excellent fat and carb adaptation.
i started doing more of a delauer/saladino approach. i honestly think that this is the evolution of keto

(Betsy) #31

How do you take the honey, just plain?


yeah straight out the bottle. i know some people put it on steaks etc, not my thing


I put it in desserts :smiley: Of course, to me. It’s really good on my walnut wafers. Or anything with walnut. Great combo. They sell walnuts in honey here, small jars. Looks good, tastes good.

Do you ever eat honeycomb? Some people don’t like it, most who likes honey do I think… I find it very fun. Different texture! Great looks! So it’s nice occasionally.


no honeycomb would love to try. i personally stay away from all nuts. i used to consume lots of almond butter when on pure keto, cause ‘almonds are keto’. stuff gave me congestion and some bad reactions tbh. hindered wfat loss. i think this is individual but many advice against any nuts

(Chuck) #35

I started strick keto the first of September of 2022, that lasted maybe 2 months. Then I modified to moderately low carb and fasting. My way of lifestyle is if it is real food from nature then I will more than likely eat it I don’t eat highly precessed carbs/food, I don’t eat fast food. I have lost 54 pounds so far over about 14 months, I really don’t need to loss more weight. But my body is still slimming down and I am still losing the slightest amount of weight a long the way. My fasting time averages 19 hours each day. What I eat depends on the signals from my body and not what I see, be it in an ad or friends or family’s encouraging me to eat.


Amounts matter A LOT. Amount is what makes something essential toxic…
I used to eat 150g nuts and oily seeds a day for years as it was my best option back then. Never read good enough explanation what would be the problem with them but I ask my body for these things anyway.
Now I eat close to none but they are tasty and way healthier to me than honey for sure - if we only consider physical things. I consider everything :wink: