Achieving Ketosis

(Paul) #1

Hi All

Happy New Year

I started one week ago and have a couple of questions:

Regarding starting off I have seen websites that talk about not worrying about calories. I understand this but still need to know how much food to eat, so have been using 2200cal in MyFitnessPal, in ratios of 65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs. This gives me in a day 159g fat, 165g protein and 27g carbs. Does this sound about ok?

Secondly I have now been doing it a week, and have lost about 5lbs. My aim is not to lose weight but some bodyfat. My test strips have shown at best moderate levels of ketones, but often back then to minimal. My only symptoms after a week are a slightly metalic taste in my mouth. Again does this sound normal.

And finally although my aim is for 2200cal / day I exercise on my bike most days burning 400-600cal and cutting out rubbish food find it difficult to eat nearly 3000cal in a day, so probably only end up with nett 1700cal in a day. Would this affect ketosis in any way?

An thoughts on any of these points would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

#2

Happy New Year and welcome to keto.

What you’re doing sounds good.

Watch the Net Carbs more than any other number. Ideally 20g at least in the first couple of weeks to really send the message to your body. Later some people wonder up to 25-30, some stay around 20g. Some explorer to find their upper limit … worry about those details later.

The next number to nail is protein. That’s based off your weight (minus fat). Just lookup some tables.

It doesn’t have to be as exact as the carb grams. If you have too many proteins you might feel dousy. (And might get an insulin response…)

How much to eat overall. That’s a tricky one. It has been said “eat until satiety” but if you’ve been a carb junky like I use to be it becomes hard to know what “satiety” means, I had forgotten. I ate until jam packed or the plates were clean (I hate throwing food away).

So in the early days I used my iPhone to tell me. I wasn’t counting calories as a methodology, just a rough guide. 1600 one day, 2000 the other, 1300 basically all over the place.

But after a few weeks I remember what satiety felt like.

I don’t eat until jam packed. And I never starve, I’m never hungry, in between meals I’ll grab some low carb nut mix or something.

Sorry to be so vague about the total amount but the answer is along those lines. Focus on carbs. Have some sort of limit on protein. The rest can be fat like butter, olive oil, coconut oil … - one teaspoon goes a long way and that’s all I’m talking about, not drinking buckets of it.

(Paul) #3

Many thanks Alex

Based on that I think I can change my targets to

2200cals (only used as a guide of how much to eat in these early stages)

20g carbs (4%), 148g protein (26%), 172g fat (70%)

Will try this and see how I get on.

Thanks for you thoughts

#4

No worries. More people will come along I’m sure. Most of them are in the US so a sleep right now.

Remember it’s 20g Net Carbs not Total Carbs. (Net Carbs is Total carbs on the label minus fibre).

(Scott) #5

Some of us are awake. I don’t count calories because that’s not how I want to live. I do have some belly fat I want to lose. I am down 25 pounds since July but have stalled weight wise. That’s okay and gives me time to play around tweaking little things. Right now I am focusing on running and exercise. I am trying to get to 30 miles a week as I prepare for a ski trip. I will see how that effects my fat and weight when I hit that level. I only have about ten pounds to lose anyway. Keep your eye on the carbs and let your body guide you the rest of the way.

(Paul) #6

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How does that work in this example? 4.4g carbs and 24g fibre.

(Paul) #7

Found the answer, in the EU total carbs does not contain the fibre so there is no nett carbs on EU packaging.

(Paul) #8

Thanks Scott. I think perhaps once I have done few weeks and have an idea of the sort of quantities and foods I should be eating then I can will be able to do that.

Hope you have a great trip.

(Scott) #9

When I stopped eating carbs I adopted a three meal a day with no snacking strategy. I eat till I am satisfied but no longer attempt to clear the plate. On the weekends I started moving breakfast to noon to skip a meal. I am heading out to run seven miles fasted to burn some fat off. I think I will also play a 2KD podcast to increase to ear burn too.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #10

It may be in the macros but 159 grams of fats seems like a lot to me. I eat fats but don’t monitor the amount very carefully. I do pay close attention to making every effort to stay <20 carbs and I don’t worry about protein at all. I know that I am getting plenty and trimmed down on it after a stall. You only need that much fat if you’re feeling burnt out energy wise in my opinion. Once you’re in ketosis you should cut that some if you’re wanting to burn body fat but early on it’s important to get your body used to using fats instead of carbs. If you don’t limit the carbs enough your body will just store that fat away :confused:. It’s a bit of a tricky balance especially if you’re used to eating another way. My girlfriend is starting keto after a lifetime of low fat and she really struggled with the fat consumption. Changing a lifetime of eating habits isn’t easy.

(Carl Keller) #11

Hello Paul and welcome.

If it satiates you then it’s enough. If it stuffs you, it’s too much. The general consensus around here is to not count macros or calories so much and to just track total or net carbs. I prefer net carbs and I try to keep it under 20 for best results. 27 is probably ok to achieve a state of ketosis but 20 will mean your body will learn quicker to rely on fat for fuel since there’s very little glucose to be had.

Generally if you are losing body fat, you are losing weight… unless you are replacing said fat with muscle which would probably increase your weight. That’s not to say either of these are bad. Just saying the scale is probably going to move downward if you keep doing keto and drop body fat.

Totally sounds normal since the pee strips are pretty unreliable. I will say that the pee strips only measure the ketones that you are wasting and expelling from your body. The better measure of ketosis is how you feel. More energy? Less inflammation? DIminished hunger and cravings? If yes to all, then it’s working.

Exercise and keto do work well together but if you find yourself fatigued from it, it’s likely your body is in a state of transition and not exactly proficient in using fat for fuel. Most folks will wait until they reach a better state of fat adaption. Then energy is consistent and workouts are a lot easier to do.

(Scott) #12

I am a runner and it took me about three months to get my workout energy back. Give it time and push on through. A good fasted run puts me into ketosis every time. I eat/drink about 50 g daily of carbs so I tend to live on the edge.

(Brittany E) #13

There isn’t actually any evidence to support going as low as 20net carbs. Every single bit of science I can find advises a ceiling of 50net carbs. Yes including Volek and Phinny in the Art and Science of low carb.

#14

Atkins had tens and tens of thousands of patients, he used 20 g net carbs as the value to aim for (at least in the Induction Phase which is what we call “the keto diet” now, he said he was too busy to perform studies but invites others to do so. Decades later Westman, Phinney and Volek (and then others) performanced many studies.

The point is it all ties together. Even though a lot of this isn’t an “official study” it is still a lot of activity with a lot of people and a lot can be learned from it.

I am 99.99% certain Phinney / Volek suggest 20 grams Net Carbs not 50.

In later videos I have heard Jeff speak of 30 grams Total Carbs (which is about 20 net carbs) so.

Are we confusing Net with Total? Or something? I don’t know waht’s going on.

(Brittany E) #15

First of all, are you really saying a theory and unsustainable fad diet beats science??

Second, the science which shows fat adaption on <50nc essentially destroys the <20nc “theory”

Third, Atkins now promotes the new 40carb plan and have lots of science to back that up (most is locked behind a pay wall otherwise I would say 40nc too); also, both Atkins and weight watchers have changed their diets to include free vegetables (and fruits on ww). This is important because they implemented free foods because they realize people do not allocate their carbs/points to healthy food and they were doing damage due to not getting enough nutrition.

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(Brittany E) #16

Also these studies. Yes, NET carbs

#17

Ok thanks for that.

Oh I see what’s going on, I have read the yellow and green covered “The Art and Science …” where they talk about 20g most of the time … but as you point out the blue covered “Performance” version uses 50 but as I suspected it is indeed Total Carbs not Net Carbs.

‘ A low carbohydrate diet that increases ketone levels above 1 millimolar (typical of someone eating less than 50 g/day of total carbs)”

In the vid Jeff explained it’s the same amount of carbs but for some reason it was better to switch to Total Carbs because people had a tendency to … (and sorry I fell asleep at that point, can’t remember why it was better).

(Running from stupidity) #18

And who heae isn’t an elite athlete? Really?

#19

Yes I am placing value on careful clinical practice. Absolutely. Over 50,000 patients can’t all have been wronged.

I am a scientist and have worked at a university for 4 years, scientists are human, they follow the money more than seagulls fight over chips at the beach …

Very smart people acting in very dumb ways, so I got out of there.

Yes - science is tained.

I worked in the medical industry for 10 years, Sorry - but you guessed it. They are also tained. Massive inducements from big pharma and clearly big fast-food is a major player in all this. I have also seen this sausage factory.

So yes I trust Atkins, Westman, Phinney, Volek, Noakes more than regular Honest-Joe-on-the-take scientists.

It’s the same theory. Just 50 grams Total Carbs versus 20 grams Net Carbs.

: Just to clarify not all scientists are dumb and tained and not all medical practitioners are dumb and tained, just most of them. That leaves a few good ones I can trust. Thankfully I found some in these circles.

Cheers

(Brittany E) #20

Look man, I’m just trying to figure this all out. I’m vegan keto which as you can imagine gets difficult as our proteins have carbs, lots, and the ones that don’t are heavily processed. Because my body was craving freshness on the diet (couldn’t allocate much veg carb or fruits period) I started wondering how important 20nc was and whether I could figure a loophole to allow myself some fruit, so I decided to hit up pubmed (because the whole world is corrupted so I look for proof, especially with anything “health” related) and searched “ketogenic diet” and the ones that weren’t locked behind a paywall all said 50 net carbs. :woman_shrugging:t2:

So I cross referenced with Atkins and saw they also changed their macros to 40 net carbs plus free green veg.

Then somebody brought up Volek so I googled him and that article popped up.

That’s where I’m at.

If you’ve got anything more than “i trust these people who made lots of money on promoting fad diets” I’m happy to read/watch whatever! I’m not trying to be rude… I know journals are corrupt but so are business men (which includes doctors selling books/diets) and just because something works in the short run doesn’t make it sustainable, and 20nc is extreme for most people which means not sustainable.

Cheers