My hunger signals are way better than when I was a carb eater. Also my personal desire meter (when near a dessert bar to example) has swung from ‘Ohh I wish I could try that’ to ‘eww that looks disgusting’.
Something I learned from your podcast Ron is that it really is a mental game against habits and culture rather than actual hunger ( when there is adequate body fat to draw from). I still have a couple of dozen kg in that dept yet!
That was a read. Thank you Ron for your candour.
A question: your fast was over Lent, a time for reflection and setting goals for the future. Did you pray? More particularly did you address your eating whilst praying or meditating?
And I wonder if the ‘black sludge’ is just like the medium passed by a newborn, an accumulation of dead cells and bacteria.
I just want to say thank you to @ron-coleman and this incredible group of supportive people. I started my first fast on Jan 1, 2019 with a final swig of champaign… and this thread opened the can of worms for me.
My initial goal for fasting was simply to kickstart myself back into ketosis - which I’ve experimented with on and off for the past 7 years. I was coming from a pretty crappy holiday diet so I was ready to clean things up. I had only intended to fast for 24-36 hours but I felt so good (aside from being starving since I wasn’t fat-adapted yet) and confident from reading this thread, that I made it 88 hours before I decided to stop for social reasons. That fast was one of the most interesting experiences of my entire life… and I have not had a boring life so far.
Since Jan 1:
…I have learned so freakin much - both about the science and about myself.
Thanks to Dr. Fung, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, other experts, and everyone on these forums, I’m literally schooling my freshly-minted MD friends about nutrition, our metabolic hormones, and the CICO-myth.
Finally, to anyone who’s read this far in the thread and is thinking about fasting: You can do it. Just do it safely. But you can do it… and I promise you won’t regret it. And if the pride and confidence you’ll feel could be bottled and sold, you’d take it everyday. Just learn and be safe!
So thank you to everyone here, @richard, @carl (I binged hard on the podcast), and for @ron-coleman for inspiring me and so many others. I raise my last swig of @Brenda’s KetoAide to you all and wish you the best on your continued journeys!
Nice to see in mainstream media. This is a magazine advertisement taken out many years ago by a group of low-carb-focused professionals:
I’m sorry but I have to ask after reading this whole thread.
I believe at one time @ron-coleman wife asked what the difference is between this and caloric restriction diet. Ron explained to her about BMR and such, but isn’t 500 calories in the form of heavy cream a day just extreme caloric restriction? And as the way he explained it: extreme low calories Keto combined with 20:4 IF (as he only use heavy cream coffee in the morning)
As far as I’ve understood, a fast is less than 50 calories and a fast for autophagy is 0 calories for at least 48 hours.
Although due to the low calories and >20 < 24H fasts, the GKI is low, but is that in this case a telltale sign for autophagy? I mean, you’d reap autophagy benefits for 6 hours daily this way, not much different from IF. While a 0-calories fast would equal the amount of days of 0-caloriesfast (minus 18 hours to get into autophagy).
And the growth hormone level, shouldn’t it peak after 48 hours? But ron never reached that long of a fast. (But even a “short” 20 hour fast already raises HGF)
I’m just wondering what would happen if he’d have bonebroth/heavy cream every 5th day instead of every day. Would the “yoyo” effect after the fast breaking be less prominent?
Good question, Ben. Before I got married -nearly 30 years ago(for about 6 weeks before the wedding I did a 300 calorie a day thing for the 6 weeks and lost 40 pounds, and that WAS NOT SMART of me and was verrry anorexic of me and it was totally not Keto either) but that was the kind of weird --not healthy dieting I did before Keto. I probably could do that again ---- butttt I do not want to and won’t ever again --but any severely restrictive plan, whether it be Keto of any calorie restriction will make you lose weight – except that it does cause the “yoyo” effect, as you have mentioned, and I feel that it messed up my own metabolism doing that tons of times over the years, (along with my binging, purging, reduced calories, diet pills and laxatives…). I just completed an 100 hour fast with only water, plain coffee, tea and some Pink Himalyan salt rocks swallowed daily, and I think that is maybe more beneficial for Autophagy and overall fasting from what I have read and seen with Dr. Jason Fung. I am no expert; but for me, personally my TMAD 20:4 or following the IDM protocol that Dr. Jason Fung puts his patients on, would be more effective.
This is the protocol:
I am planning on going back to this soon again – I was doing it and then switched back to my TMAD 20:4 but this protocol seems to be very effective and once you get used to it, it is very easy to follow. I extend it to 44 hours and eat at 1pm and 4:30 to keep up my TMAD 20:4 on the eating days, but I think that this would be easier to follow then trying to fast for a very long period is all =).
Good question, Ben. I’d say somewhat, yes - cream has a little protein and a little amount of carbohydrates in it, and those are definitely working against the “fasting” part of it. It’s mostly fat, and there I think it’s different - if we’re fasting, we’re burning our own stored fat. What’s the difference if we eat a little fat? Probably some effect on stomach-related hormones? I don’t know if that would matter or not.
I think the “50 calories” thing is just silly - who in the heck came up with that? 
If there would be an exception, it’d be with eating fat, as per above, and quite a few people will have butter in coffee, for example, thereby not getting enough protein/carbs to matter.
Autophagy being increased is a gradual thing once we’ve emptied the stomach and the small intestine, had blood sugar and insulin begin to decline, had glucagon begin to increase, depleted most of our stored glycogen - it’s usually going to be the second or even the third day of fasting where all this is completed. If coming off eating ketogenically, then one could presume the glycogen storage is less, so things are probably sped up some hours.
One can have a low GKI while eating ketogenically, so equating that with autophagy is pretty much meaningless, there. Going from a carb-heavy diet to fasting would be somewhat different, at least. Protein is the most potent inhibitor of autophagy, and carbs have a very large effect too, so if increasing autophagy is the goal, you really want to keep those to zero. I don’t think there is any good argument for autophagy being increased with intermittent fasting - this is assuming protein is being eaten every day.
I don’t know about 20 hours, but growth hormone keeps increasing for many days - the one study I saw had it peaking at 20+ days of fasting. Again, I have to say that eating some little bit of fat shouldn’t have much of a hormonal effect on you, much different from protein/carbs.
I do think there would be an effect - the little bit of protein and carbs only every 5 days, rather than every day.
I think the key word here is “fasting”. Fasting does not equal to “burn our own stored fat”. If you’re fat adapted because you’re ketoing, then sure, if you don’t eat, you’d pull the calories from your stored fat. But if a glucoseburner reads this thread and decides to “fast”, it’d be his muscles (exagerated).
I believe it’s a number Jason Fung threw up one of those thousands of videos/presentation/podcasts. It could also be that it’s such a small number that you’d be burning it off in half an hour just by breathing. (whereas 500cal would be 1/4th of a day)
Also, 50cals of pure sugar would still be only 10grams of carbs. It probably won’t even kick you out of ketosis.
After searching for that 50cal-topic, I found that the zero and life apps divided “fast” in three goal categories:
everything with calories would break 2, but not necessary 1 and 3. The only way to be sure that you hit all 3 goals is by water fasting.
So that’s what i’m doing: I’m currently doing a 168 water fast (with apple cider vinegar before sleeping, salted water, plain coffee and tea).
The last extended fast (5 days) I did was in the first week of the month. But I’ve bought a renpho smart scale this week which measures body fat* and such, that’s why I’m starting an extended fast again. Just to see what effect the fast has on body fat and what happens after breaking the fast.
(* i know the impedance technology is not very accurate. I had those kind of scales/meters before and the readings tend to fluctuate by the second. But the current smart scales seems to have improved and at least the readings are consistent. So it’s good enough to see a trend)
That could be - what I think of with Dr. Fung is “less than 50 grams” being a low-carb diet, but who knows…? Agreed that 50 calories isn’t much at all, but it’s going to make an insulin spike if it’s carbohydrates, and even with short duration there’s going to be a substantial “area under the curve” if the insulin level is plotted, versus the much more flat line of no calories at all (likely excluding fat calories, there). It’s also going to stimulate ghrelin (the hunger hormone) - as does calorie restriction, versus fasting, which doesn’t once one is really into ‘fasting mode.’ One is so close to total fasting at 50 calories - I’d say, “Good grief - those few calories have a high cost to them - it’s best to cut them out.”
It’d be good to see similar people studied while fasting, half coming from carb-heavy diets, the rest from eating ketogenically.
I don’t think it’s as simple as “burning either fat or protein”. Almost everybody that fasts, regardless of prior diet, starts burning fat fairly soon, in the grand scheme of things. Once digestion and absorption of consumed food are done, and glycogen is depleted, the body is going to be burning fat. Even among ‘normal weight’ people coming from carb-heavy diets, the nitrogen excretion (indicative of protein being used for fuel) falls off a cliff after a couple days of fasting, down to 20 - 25% of it’s initial level.
Those people, too, after the first day or two of fasting, tend to lose ~0.5 lbs or 225 grams of fat per day, same as for most fasters coming from a ketogenic diet. Bigger people can lose a little more, and smaller or really lean people a little less. I do think fat-adaptation makes a difference - people will often feel better during the early days of a fast, and they’ll probably be more effective at using their own fat for fuel. Perhaps the fat-adapted end up having more of the energy available? I’m picturing keto people being better at using ketones for energy, and the others wasting more ketones via excretion (a common phenomenon).
Being really lean does make a substantial difference in the fat/protein ratio consumed while fasting. Below a certain amount of stored fat, the body won’t be able to get enough energy per day, and more metabolic slowdown will result (often with the person feeling pretty crappy) and more protein consumed. There seems to be a limit of ~29 to 34 calories per day, per pound of fat (~64 - 75 calories per kg of fat).
For Jason Fung it’s probably more practical. 50 calories is just enough for a hearty bouillon or two. If that’s enough for a someone to extend their fat with one or two days.
If it’s 50 calories in carbs, the fast will automatically fail for most people, because you’d get even more hungry from it…
Sure, even highly insulin resistant persons would start burning fat after awhile. But can they manage to get past the first few days, or would they take that sandwich with some healthy vegetables anyway? Because it’s too hard for them and therefor have a non-keto fast.
But the question is: would a non-fat adapted fast be a fast with increase of HGH and other fairy dusts protecting the BMR, or would it be the start of your typical yoyo diet?
If the person does not get into ketosis, because they keep having that 200 calories slice of bread I think it’s the latter.
To get back to topic: Ron is fat adapted, so his BMR is protected during fast, but the heavy cream is indeed breaking his fat technically. GKI would suggest autophagy, but too bad it’s just a suggestion. You can’t measure it. As he describes it, it’d be a longish intermittent fast with keto.
Lots of people do - I’m in a Facebook group related to Dr. Fung, and many people regularly fast and “don’t want to hear about ketogenic diets” .
“Get past the first few days” - that’s already going to be a successful fast for a lot of people. I do see the efficacy and benefits of longer fasts for those who don’t struggle too much with them and have enough fat. It seems common to feel bad/hungry around 18 hours or in the 2nd day - I’d think once one is past those times, then let’s roll on…
Yeah, strictly speaking, I guess so. The carbs and protein in the cream, while not much, do bug me because of the damping-down of autophagy effect.
