A really extended fast: going for 46-days!


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #442

Day 62 of my experiment, on my first feast day after a 3-day fast. I did miss my update post yesterday and I ended my fast at about the 71 hour point with a nice bone-in ribeye from Longhorn! Here are my numbers for today:






Working with my wife’s scheduled we had a coupon for Longhorn that expired today but we didn’t have time to go there today so decided to use the coupon yesterday. Tomorrow we are doing a 6-hour round trip to see our oldest granddaughter before she leaves college to go home for the summer. I am working this fast/feast cycling around my personal schedule so I will get to ‘switch it up’ on a regular basis and still fit most personal plans into my eating.

My glucose numbers were still high for me today so I will feast for about 48 hours, ending Tuesday after a late lunch with our granddaughter, and then fast about 72 hours until Friday evening or so when we are on our anniversary trip together. As I said, I am using the cycling thing to include all of the fasts I want around all of the personal events that happen! This will make life a lot easier.

My wife’s only request is that I let her know when I am fasting so she can make her plans as well. I am trying to do most of my fasting during the week but with the busy weekends we often have it doesn’t really matter which days I choose, it will work out. Being that the intention is to cycle, I will not always do 48 or 72 hours like I am beginning but I will look into anywhere from 1 to possibly 4-days for each cycle and change them up often.

I read a couple of interesting articles over the weekend that I may incorporate into my plans as well. First, a May 2008 blog from Dr. Michael Eades, the co-author of “Protein Power,” whom is one of the experts I really enjoy reading. I will post the links as comments on my Facebook posts.

Dr. Eades talks about the LCHF diet ant the tendency for people to think that as long as the foods they are eating are high in fat and very low in carbohydrates then they must all be good—but this is far from the truth. We do need to be reasonable with what we eat and I really like the term he used for ‘hedonistic’ snacking! Yes, I can identify with that: snacking for the pure self-gratification and pleasure of snacking!

He mentioned that the worse snack items are cheese and nuts—again, I can identify with those 2 right away. I remember many times hearing Dr. Stephen Phinney casually mention that we need to limit cheese to no more than 4 ounces a day and about 2-3 ounces of nuts as well.

Why do we need to limit these? Because they are a slippery slope, like Lay’s potato chips “You can’t eat just one!” Oh yes, let me tell you, I can easily sit down and eat ounce after ounce of nuts or cheese. Cheese actually fills me up faster but put me at a manager’s evening event in a hotel and I can go for a good plate of those cheese cubes. Knowing that 3 cubes is about an ounce I should limit myself to no more than 9 cubes: well, that is good for the first plate! And what about the cheese I had on my omelet that morning, or the cheeseburger, with extra cheese since I’m on the ketogenic diet, I had for lunch? Did I just ‘forget’ about all that cheese as well?

Nuts are a whole other thing, they don’t fill me as well as cheese does so I could probably go through a whole 11 ounce bag of macadamias in one sitting or even spread out over a day. And who says that I couldn’t do both excessive nuts and cheese in the same day? So, what to do about this hedonistic snacking? What is the best answer?

I have set out to be very honest with tracking what I eat in MyFitnessPal. I am also determined to STOP SNACKING and include these, purely pleasurable, trouble foods in my normal meals only. This way I am maintaining accountability to myself just like these daily updates do for me as well.

I have been successful for the last week or so and I am hoping that the fast/feast cycling will help me stay in line as well.

Oh yes, I am not the only one that has this misconception, in a June 2008 follow-up to the original blog, Dr. Eades begins with a letter from an exasperated dieter:

A lady from New England wrote to us complaining that she had diligently followed our low-carb diet to the letter yet, had lost only four pounds over the first few weeks of the program. She included her food diary to show that she was indeed doing a low-carb diet. Here it is:

BREAKFAST: a four-egg omelet with cream cheese, five or six pieces of bacon or sausage, and coffee.
MID-MORNING SNACK: 4 ounces of nuts and 2 to 4 ounces of cheese.
LUNCH: a large bowl of tune or ham or chicken salad make with real mayonnaise, a bag of pork rinds, and a diet drink.
MID-AFTERNOON SNACK: nuts and cheese again.
DINNER: a 16 ounce piece of prime rib, a green vegetable, and a small salad.
DESSERT: sugar-free gelatin and whipped cream and coffee.

When we received this letter MD [Ron - Mary Dan his wife and co-author] and I wanted to shake this woman and say: Does it not surprise you that you’re not gaining weight on your diet? I’m sure the only reason she lost the 4 pounds was that she dumped a bunch of excess fluid as a result of her insulin falling. If you run the calculations you will find that this woman was eating somewhere around 5,000 calories per day. She was definitely not creating a deficit. And she wasn’t losing…but she wasn’t gaining either.


(Jacquie) #443

@ron-coleman Especially enjoyed your post today as I started lc in the mid-90’s with Eades Protein Power and read Mike Eades’ blog from time to time. Found myself agreeing with him and you regarding nuts and cheese. A slippery slope indeed! I think you’re a great example of someone who makes fasting work despite your busy work and personal life. :smiley:


(Barbara Greenwood) #444

It’s nuts and cream for me…


(Crow T. Robot) #445

I had to switch to raw nuts (almonds, walnuts) because I can eat the roasted and salted kind until I burst. Cheese is much more satiating, thank goodness, but I still have to watch it.


(Michelle) #446

Great reminder. Slippery slopes. I can totally manage my nut intake, it’s the cheese and dairy that is a weakness. I have it with most meals.

May will be a “lower dairy” month for me. I’m consciously making choices to have less. I cannot go to “none” right now, so working on less.


#447

What a great thread, Ron! I haven’t been on here in ages and it took a long time to catch up reading. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and for the great podcast interview!


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #448

Day 63 of my experiment, on my second feast day after a 3-day fast. Took a 6-hour road trip to see our granddaughter today and actually ate 3 good meals! Did I also mention that I fasted for all of Lent, March 1 to April 16, 2017? 46 days! Here are my numbers for today:





I have been including my journal from MyFitnessPal showing what I’ve been eating each day and have changed it up a bit so that the journal I post is from the day before and you can then see what happened to my weight and blood glucose and ketones the next morning. Just seems to make more sense to me. Plus, depending on what time I do the update I may actually eat something after that so posting the previous day’s journal.

Yesterday I talked about a couple of blog posts my Dr. Michael Eades and there is another current study that just came out last month, April 2017, that was studying the hunger hormones leptin and ghrelin in people with Type 2 Diabetes (T2D) and since I feel that I am still very insulin resistant, one of the major factors in T2D I was interested in how my body decides if I am hungry or not.

Leptin is our satiety hormone, it tells the hypothalamus in our brain that we have eaten and are full. Leptin is actually made by our adipose, fat, tissues and I like to look at it that if we are adding more fat then we are storing energy so we must not be hungry! The problem comes when the brain becomes leptin resistant and doesn’t get the signals to stop eating. This is very common with obese individuals like me especially ones with insulin resistance and/or T2D.

Ghrelin is our hunger hormone, it tells the hypothalamus that we are hungry and need more food. Ghrelin is created in our GI tract so if there isn’t much in the way of digestion to do, or the process is slowing due to lack of energy then more ghrelin is secreted.

The study titled “The effect of meal frequency in a reduced-energy regimen on the gastrointestinal and appetite hormones in patients with type 2 diabetes: A randomised crossover study.” Looks at persons with T2D and their eating patterns. Two different diets, both hypocaloric, lower in calories, are given either as 2 large meals: breakfast and lunch or as 6 smaller meals throughout the day. In both cases, the same number of calories are consumed during a day.

The conclusions are interesting and show that the group eating the 2 meals a day had a higher fasting ghrelin. That means that the subjects woke up more hungry and were able to eat the large breakfast and then the lunch later in the day and were still able to lose weight!

The group who ate the 6 smaller meals had lower fasting ghrelin and had troubles eating first thing in the morning and had a bit of difficulty losing weight!

So how does this impact me? It tells me that eating fewer times a day allows my hormones to work better and helps me lose weight. Eating 6 times a day never allows your body to get hungry whereas eating only 2 times, but larger meals, allows for a longer period of fasting between lunch and breakfast the next day which allows the body to work its magic and lose more weight. Hmm, sounds like intermittent fasting (IF) to me!

So, back to the ‘hedonistic snacking’ that Dr. Eades mentioned in his blogs; snacking for any reason, especially pure pleasure, defeats what it is that I am trying to do which is to lose weight! Snacking undermines my attempts to become healthier.

As I write this I am feeling guilty because on the way home from our road trip I had a nice dinner of 6 ounces of almost fatty brisket and some hot sauce (they were really nice and gave me a 45% discount because I didn’t have any sides) but I still went into the pantry upon getting home and grabbed some macadamia nuts to snack on. I didn’t need them, I wasn’t hungry, I wanted them and I know it was a mistake!

As I said yesterday, I need to include the foods I snack on with my meals so I can enjoy them, not feel like I can’t have them, but include them at the right time. I could have some nuts as an appetizer or a dessert. I also love 90% cocoa chocolate and I may have that sometimes as a dessert.

One of the big goals I had when I started my 46-day fast was to get better control over my impulsive and hedonistic eating habits and thankfully writing these updates really help me to see where I am making my mistakes!

I didn’t start my fast this afternoon as I planned, but I will this evening. I will fast until sometime on Friday when we leave for our anniversary celebration up the coast! 2+ days fasting, then 3 days feasting – with control hopefully, and then back home for a few more days of fasting to keep the fast/feast cycling going!

Onto better eating!


(Bill Cube) #449

Any news on this (or did I miss it ?), was there any significant deficiency ?


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #450

@Bill_Cube I talked about it <a href=https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/a-really-extended-fast-going-for-46-days/8415/410?u=ron-coleman>here


(Roxanne) #451

Thanks for this post, Ron - this is something I’ve been lapsing back into. It’s all Keto, and my weight is stable, but if I want to continue with weight loss it’s something I have to stop!


(Barbara Greenwood) #452

Same for me. It’s knocking snacking on the head will get my scale moving at more than the snail’s crawl it has been doing (4 months to lose 6lb). That and more fasting, of course.


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #453

Day 65 of my experiment, on my second fast day into a 65 hour fast. I missed yesterday’s update and I apologize but sometimes work gets in the way of progress! Here are my numbers for today:




This fast/feast cycling seems to be well accepted by my body as I have lost 12.4 lbs. in almost a week. I ended my long fast on Easter Sunday and then started eating again which had a few issues that I mentioned in previous updates, nothing serious though. I also appeared to have regained some of my previous eating habits during the first 2 weeks after the fast so I went on the fast/feast cycling last week and have done a 3-day (70 hours) fast, 2-day (48 hours) feast, and am now at about 41 hours into fasting again. I am going away tomorrow for a 3-day anniversary weekend and will be feasting while gone.

Here is a graph to show how things have changed over the last couple of weeks.

The beginning of the graph is as I am finishing my 46-day fast and then the 12 days of feasting. You can tell by the weight line when I began the fast/feast cycling and can see a steady drop in weight whether I was feasting or fasting during the last week.

That is the great thing about cycling as your metabolism ramps up while fasting as this is the natural thing for your body to do. A lot of people ask me if I feel tired or faint because I am in starvation mode and I tell them ‘No.’ Would it make sense that in the times of our hunter/gatherer ancestors who lived with feast or famine on a regular basis for their bodies to shut down just because they didn’t have food for a few days? Or should our bodies release adrenalin to increase our metabolism and mental acuity so that we can go hunt for fresh food? I know that the latter is true from my experiences fasting!

This past Tuesday night news mentioned a study comparing alternate day fasting (ADF) to daily calorie restriction (DCR). Of course they mentioned it early in the hour and then had the piece at about :58 minutes after the hour so it did not surprise me that the study conclusion was the same old stuff that there is no difference between ADF and DCR.

I downloaded the study the next morning and read through it and yes, the conclusion stated “Alternate-day fasting did not produce superior adherence, weight loss, weight maintenance, or cardioprotection vs daily calorie restriction.” Now there are many books on alternate day fasting as well as online communities with tens of thousands of success stories so why did this study not find anything significant?

The study had a clear objective and was set up in with 6 months of weight loss and 6 months of follow up so we can really see how well the participants adhered to the study protocol. There were 100 participants randomized into 3 groups: the ADF group, the DCR group, and the control group. Everything looks fine to this point.

What did the participants in each group eat? “Participants in the control group were instructed to maintain their weight throughout the trial and not to change their eating or physical activity habits. Controls received no food or dietary counseling.” As expected the control group just went on with their lives although they did receive “3 months of free weight-loss counseling and a 12-month gym membership at the end of the study.”

The alternate day fasting and daily calorie restriction groups were provided with all meals during the first 3 months of the trial and received dietary counseling thereafter. “During the 6-month weight-loss phase, the intervention groups were instructed to reduce their energy intake by a mean of 25% per day. To achieve this reduction, the alternate-day fasting group was instructed to consume 25% of baseline energy intake as a lunch (between 12 PM and 2 PM) on fast days and 125% of baseline energy intake split between 3 meals on alternating feast days. The daily calorie restriction group was instructed to consume 75% of baseline energy intake split between 3 meals every day.” So each group would be eating an isocaloric diet, the same number of calories per day.

This doesn’t hold well with traditional ADF where, in some cases, you are allowed up to 500 calories on a fasting day but on the feasting day you are encouraged to eat like you normally would. This study upped that by requiring the ADF participants to eat 125% of their usual calories! In other words, this study did not compare traditional ADF to calorie restriction. The standard ADF plan actually cuts total calories over the fasting and feasting to 50% of normal and most participants don’t even notice or complain after they get used to it.

Another big problem with the study is a real whopper in my opinion: “The provided meals were in accordance with the American Heart Association guidelines for macronutrient intake, with 30% of energy as fat, 55% as carbohydrate, and 15% as protein.” This is the Standard American Diet (or SAD) that most people eat anyway. The biggest problem here is the 55% of calories coming from carbohydrates—the very foods that make you hungry! How is someone supposed to fast when more than half of the food they are eating is not satiating?

“On the fast day (Figure 2A), participants in the alternate-day fasting group exceeded their prescribed energy goal at months 3 and 6. On the feast day (Figure 2B), participants in the alternate-day fasting group ate less than their prescribed goal at months 3, 6, 9, and 12.” So, as I was saying, because of the carbs the ADF group ended up eating more on the fasting days. Because the investigators wanted the study to be isocaloric, therefore asking the fasting participants to eat 125% of normal calories every other day, they couldn’t do it. In other words they had very poor adherence to the study protocol. Intermittent fasting, which they did on the fasting days, actually reduces hunger as well.

This could also be why the ADF group had the highest dropout 13 of 34. 5 of those 13 withdrew because they were ‘dissatisfied with diet.’ Could it have anything to do with the diet they were given?

I will argue that someone doing ADF on their own, or with a private counselor, would have very different results. If you want to have success fasting: Please, Please, go onto a ketogenic diet first and become fat adapted and the fasting will come naturally and be easier than the feasting for you!

EDIT: Forgot the link to the study!


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #454

Day 66 of my experiment, started 3-days of feasting after a 65 hour fast. Away from home for a nice 3-day weekend and enjoying the time with my wife! Here are my numbers for today:





Since I am away from home I will not be weighing myself for the next 2 days as I don’t travel with my scale. I will do as before and just carry my weight forward each day. I have tried doing all kinds of tricks with my spreadsheet to get around having to do this but most of the tricks screw up the calculations so I gave up trying!

Speaking of weight loss, I lost another 1.4 lbs. today from a 2+ day fast and that means I have been able to continue the weight loss and am just 5 lbs above my lowest weight recorded from my 46-day fast! My blood glucose is down to under 100 for a couple of days in a row now; it was still high (111-118 mg/dl, 6.2-6.6 mmol/l) during my first fast when I started the cycling! My blood ketones have stayed above 1.0 mmol/l for a few days as well which is very respectable.

Listening to the “KetoTalk with Jimmy Moore & the Doc” podcast has brought up a few interesting tidbits that stuck with me in the last week. Firstly, someone asked why some people can reach ketone levels over 5 mmol/l while others stay between 1 and 2 mmol/l even on a longer fast?

The discussion between Jimmy and Dr. Adam Nalley was around how fat adapted the person was. In other words, how proficient is your body in making and using beta-hydroxybutyrate or blood ketones? If your body is ramped up and you don’t have anything blocking the production of ketones then you can create more ketones. What may block their creation? Mostly dietary considerations like carbs and excessive protein. There are many other factors like stress and other conditions that will play a part but the easiest to evaluate personally are part of your diet.

What about using ketones: how many do we burn and do we use them efficiently? Well, some things we do not know like how many ketones does the brain use versus the heart. We do not know how ketones are distributed throughout the body and if more are sent here or there. The things we do know more about is where and when ketone bodies will be used and that ketones are the cleanest burning fuel for our body.

An interesting question on the same topic was asked about why glucose was considered the ‘preferred’ fuel for the body when ketones are actually the best fuel for us. Let’s start with a look at alcohol: we know that alcohol is metabolized similarly to fructose and there isn’t really a lot of energy that comes out of the alcohol consumed. However, we do know that alcohol is toxic and our body does whatever it can to get the alcohol out of our system quickly. It processes alcohol before anything else. Well, not really, but alcohol is the priority to remove and does become ‘preferred’ over glucose and ketones.

Next, we hear all the time the carbohydrates are the ‘preferred’ food for our brains. Well, again, let’s look at glucose and realize that it is toxic as well as alcohol! That means our bodies need to get excess glucose out of our bloodstream so our pancreas releases insulin to store the glucose as glycogen in our muscles and liver and then store the remaining glucose as body fat. Insulin also blocks the lipolysis that would begin the creation of ketones.

Once again, we can see that diet makes all the difference in the world about how our body decides to burn fuel. If you are eating a very healthy ketogenic diet and are keeping your carbs low but you decide to have a glass of wine each evening then you have changed the way your body processes ketones as the priority has now shifted to the alcohol!

The other question that peaked my interest was on satiation: a listener asked how she could tell if she was satiated; what does it feel like? I was flabbergasted as I have had that same question for years and I even mentioned before that I rarely know when I am full!

The rules of the ketogenic diet are to limit carbs: less than 20 g or 5% of total calories; eat moderate protein: 1 to 1.5 g per kg of lean body mass; and then eat fat to satiety. So, what is satiety and how do you know if you are there?

Dr. Nalley had an answer that reminded me of something I learned 20-some years ago that it takes your brain about 20 minutes to realize that you can stop eating now. 20 minutes! He went on to explain that he used to eat 3 eggs, cooked in butter of course, and 5-7 strips of bacon for breakfast as he was running out of the house and he couldn’t figure out why his weight had plateaued. One day his son invited him to sit and have breakfast and when he slowed down his eating process he realized that he couldn’t hear that satiation signal because he was eating too fast. He now eats 2 eggs, still cooked in butter, and 2-3 strips of bacon and is fully satiated!

I wrote a few weeks ago on how I thought I was leptin resistant as I rarely felt full. (Leptin is the satiety hormone produced by your fat tissues.) I thought that I was still metabolically deranged to the point that I never felt full and I had wondered for a long time if it would ever correct itself. Then Adam mentioned a patient he had who would always chew every bite of food 38 times before swallowing, sometimes even more! Now, BANG, there it was!

How do we slow down our eating so the leptin signal can get to our brain before we eat everything in sight? As I was taught in Weight Watchers decades ago: put your fork down between bites and chew your food thoroughly. Today I tried that: I had 2 boiled eggs and 4 strips, actually rolls as I can cook 2.5 times as much at one time, and I chewed a minimum of 38 times for each bite.

With the eggs that almost seemed a bit excessive but the bacon, even though it was crispy, still took more than 38 chews per bite to really break it down well. It took me almost 20 minutes to finish that meal and I felt fine and not the least bit hungry after that. On our trip we stopped in Savannah, GA, for lunch and, since today is Cinco de Mayo, we had Mexican for lunch; I had a ribeye steak smothered in peppers! I tried to slow down the eating process and chew, chew, chew, but it was really noisy in there and that kind of made me a bit stressed and I rushed a bit through my meal. I did manage to have only about 6 oz. of the steak and most of the peppers.

I was not hungry when I started but I ate the steak anyway as I’m on holiday and I could! Later, at dinner, I was still pretty full from earlier so I got a grass fed burger with a couple of slices of bacon. I made a big point to once again chew and I kept up a conversation with my wife so I ate very slowly. I only ate half the burger and was very full!

I think I have finally learned what it means to eat to satiety: not eat as much as I can in a few minutes but actually sit, enjoy the great food I can have, and take my time eating until my body says “I don’t need any more!”


(Jane Reed) #455

This business about chewing my food more slowly is one I’m trying on. The habit of a lifetime is hard to break.


(Barbara Greenwood) #456

I have a vague memory of sitting at my grandmother’s kitchen table and being told I should chew every mouthful 32 times before swallowing. Needless to say I didn’t follow that advice.

I think, at my next meal, I shall observe how often I typically chew each mouthful before swallowing. Try to observe without changing, I mean, for comparison. And then go to 32/38 and see what difference that makes.


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #457

@Barbara_Greenwood I have been counting, and counting, the last couple of days and I am not eating as much!

I had only a 3-egg omelet with chorizo, pepper jack cheese, avacado, and a few veggies: ate it very slowly and almost left 1/8 of it on the plate. That was 4 hours ago and I am still not hungry!


(Barbara Greenwood) #458

I will have to try harder… I’d been eating for a minute or two before I remembered to count. My default number of chews is between 15 and 20. Tried increasing to 30+, but soon forgot about that too!


(Arlene) #459

This way of eating has helped with the food shoveling problem because I can always have all I want. I remind myself to thoroughly enjoy and savor every bite of this delicious, rich meal. I don’t count bites any more. It never worked for me, and now it just seems like compulsive behavior.


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #460

Okay! I missed 2 updates in a row, but I had a fabulous anniversary weekend with my wife so only a brief apology. Here are my numbers for the last few days: (remember that I carried the same weight for the days I was out of town!)





I have dropped the glucose/ketone index charts as they are all out of the therapeutic range during my fast/feast cycling phase.

A brief review of my current experiment:

  • I started a 46-day fast on Ash Wednesday, 1 March 2017 and started eating again on Easter Sunday.
    
  • I then ate (feasted) for 12 days and put back on a bit of the weight I had lost during the long fast. Most of the gain was hydration and other elements that needed to be replenished.
    
  • I then began the fast/feast cycling where the object is to get maximum benefit from fasting and still be able to eat. I am doing random number of days either fasting or feasting so my body does not get too used to any set pattern.
    
  • I have lost some of the excess from my 12-day feast and am currently about 9 pounds over my lowest weight in the 46-day fast.
    
  • I have been LCHF since July 2015 (22 months) and have lost 85 pounds so far.
    

Looks like I put on a few pounds over the weekend but I am not worried. I was going to fast for a days beginning today but that fell through pretty quickly. I have a business trip Tuesday-Thursday this week and I am undecided if I want to just fast for those days or not. The problem is scheduling as I will leave next Sunday, Mother’s Day in the US, to go to visit my Mother in Chicago and will want to eat with her then. The following few days I will be heading to see some of my grandkids and will be with them until Wednesday. So how do I break up my fast/feasting days?

I am sure that I will work it all out and I will keep you posted on my progress.

I added a graph in the last week or two that tracks my progress since ending the 46-day fast so I can track how I am doing with the fast/feast cycling. The bars in the chart show the total calories I’ve eaten and they are broken down by the percentage of macronutrients that make up those calories. My target is 3-5% carbohydrates, 15-20% protein, and 80% from fat. The days with very low or no bars were fasting days where I go for less than 500 calories, all from fat if I can!

The line in the graph shows how my weight changed given the nutrient intake.

In my spare time, I am reading a couple of studies comparing low carbohydrate high fat (LCHF) diets to the low-fat, standard American diet (SAD) and am seeing quite a few interesting facts. I will expand on those facts in the next few days.


(Barbara Greenwood) #461

I’m looking forward to that, Ron!