A fail from an unexpected direction

[Jack_Brien]

I started reading another blog, Marks Daily Apple, based on a paleo diet with keto. It seemed to be quite reasonable in its propositions, using ketosis is a means to an end rather than an aim in itself and “The ultimate goal of any eating strategy is to increase metabolic flexibility”.
So, 2 muffins, a piece of carrot cake and another piece of cake, 180g of carbs, 112 of them sugar and I think I’m going to disagree with Mark for the moment.
Back on with it tomorrow, I’ll be cooking a shoulder of pork and cauliflower cheese.
Only check the following link if you’re damn sure if your abilities!

Where I Part Ways with the Popular Keto Movement | Mark's Daily Apple

[240lbfatloss]

He’s right. Ketosis is only one aspect of lipolysis. To focus on it is to deny the much wider concept, that of returning to a balanced hormonal state. The overall point is that Mankind evolved on the fat based diet. That’s why Paleo works so well, as long as you follow true Paleo, which is fat based. All this has been known for quite a while, certainly since the 1960’s. It just became more widely known about 20 years ago.

[PrimalBrian]

So, 2 muffins, a piece of carrot cake and another piece of cake, 180g of carbs, 112 of them sugar and I think I’m going to disagree with Mark for the moment.

If your takeaway from that article or his stance on ketosis is that you can/should/may eat what you ate above, I think he was unclear or you misunderstood. I know he says “20-120” grams of carbs is in the keto “zone” but there’s no way he’d advocate 112 or 120 grams of what you ate as advisable. The quality and source of those carbs matter. Maybe nuts, berries, sweet potato, etc., but not what you ate

[Jack_Brien]

Quite right. I’m damn sure that wasn’t what he meant at all. And I’ve got the headache now to prove it A combination of reading that article and a large amount of freely available cake at work has shown me though that I am still very much a recovering carbaholic. I most regret not eating some fruit instead though, I miss that more than cake

[PrimalBrian]

Indeed. I’m still not sold on the “keto zone” and how he claims one can effortlessly go in and out of the “keto zone.” That seems to conflict with the notion that it takes time or is somewhat difficult for your body to switch its machinery over to fat burning Mode (ie keto flu).

For example, here’s what he says about it:

At some point, you’ll just have to accept the reality of the situation: you’re shifting from a sugar-burning metabolism to a fat-burning metabolism. You’re building the metabolic machinery necessary to burn fat. You’re updating your body’s firmware, and it’s a big update (coincidentally, this is why I recommend plugging into a power source for the duration). That takes time. If the results of one study are representative, it takes about five days on a low-carb, high-fat diet to increase AMPK and start building new fat-burning mitochondria. And sure enough, most people report that the low-carb flu lasts from 4-7 days—right on target.

I can’t jive in my mind how this is consistent with easily going in and out of keto as effortlessly and consistently as he recommends. Your experience above speaks to this point and challenge.

[BGdiving]

Can’t really be sure I’m Keto only tested 15 times quite a while ago but was getting blood readings of 3.0 to 5.2 eating similar to what I am now. I have no difficulty getting back to 20 to 30 grams of carbs or so The next day after a carb binge party. I feel no worse or any different bingeing on bad carbs (ie cake, and multiple pieces of pie) than i did the day I binged on bacon with virtually no carbs. The only real difference is I get a little upset with myself for my lack of self control once I start on the carbs, I am a carb addict and can NOT HANDLE carbs in moderation, but have no adverse reaction next day going back to strict low carb diet although I will have to pay the price for the indulgence on the scale for the nest 3 or so days. I assume I go in and out of Keto zone with no difficulty other than the brief weight gain.

[Madeleine]

Indeed. I’m still not sold on the “keto zone” and how he claims one can effortlessly go in and out of the “keto zone.” That seems to conflict with the notion that it takes time or is somewhat difficult for your body to switch its machinery over to fat burning Mode (ie keto flu).

No conflict; it’s just that keto zone doesn’t mean randomly going in and out of VLC.

What Sisson recommends is 6 solid weeks of keto, checking along the way to see how your fat adaptation is developing. After the 6 weeks, he suggests that if you have serious metabolic issues you just stay with keto, and if not you can experiment with small doses of carbs near exercise and see how you tolerate them. He specifically discourages folks from putting a few high-carb days into the mix arbitrarily (i.e. weekends) since it then takes too long to shift back into fat-burning.

[PrimalBrian]

He specifically discourages folks from putting a few high-carb days into the mix arbitrarily (i.e. weekends) since it then takes too long to shift back into fat-burning.

This makes sense. He mentions an upper limit of 120 grams on “carb” days, so I can see how having just one of those days with high-quality carbs could make sense and not disrupt the underlying keto-machinery. As Jimmy Moore pointed out to him on his podcast though, for some of us, 120 grams of carbs (whatever the source) might be the first step toward a downward spiral or binge. But, I suppose that issue/concern is more mental than perhaps keto/physical.

[Madeleine]

@PrimalBrian I think that for folks with serious metabolic damage and/or those who will go into a spiral of carb binging, slipping in and out of keto is probably not a realistic option.

I think it also depends on how deeply ingrained our new food habits are. When 120g of carbs (generally before or after intense activity) is sweet potatoes or something similar and you can tolerate the carbs well, there’s not too much danger of it spiraling out of control. If it feels like cake is just one small step of temptation away, then even sweet potatoes might open the gates to hell.

I know for myself I have a huge sweet tooth and would happily chomp on keto or paleo treats endlessly - so I have to be careful - but that’s about as bad as things would get for me; there’s no chance that I’ll find myself eating jelly beans or pastries. Those foods are just no longer on my radar (or wish list).

[richard]

After the 6 weeks, he suggests that if you have serious metabolic issues you just stay with keto, and if not you can experiment with small doses of carbs near exercise and see how you tolerate them.

Yeah. That is the critical point. If your insulin is still high despite eating keto (ie: you are a recovering type 2 diabetic and have a fasted insulin over about 6 mIU/l) then it could take up to a decade of keto before you can develop metabolic flexibility.

[Jack_Brien]

A decade! Blimey, I’m sure (hoping anyway) that I’m nowhere near that.

[akirby83]

for some of us, 120 grams of carbs (whatever the source) might be the first step toward a downward spiral or binge. But, I suppose that issue/concern is more mental than perhaps keto/physical.

Right, that’s a disordered relationship with food there. For the people who are just metabolically broken but don’t have eating disorders I don’t think there’s any harm slipping out of ketosis occasionally. For those who need ketosis for neurogical reasons or have a history of eating disorders they may need to be strict.

[akirby83]

A decade! Blimey, I’m sure (hoping anyway) that I’m nowhere near that.

Better a decade slowly improving than a decade continuing to degrade.

[Jack_Brien]

I never really thought I had a disordered relationship with food, for many years I’ve believed my diet to be healthy, lots of fruit, wholemeal bread and pasta etc. I mean, I knew I had a problem with sugar, but that never seemed to be so important

[PaulL]

there’s no chance that I’ll find myself eating jelly beans or pastries.

Wish I could say that! But everybody’s different, and you just need to know where you are on the spectrum.

[NinMD]

I’m the same and I enjoy occasional carb indulgences.