2.5 months in keto and something is wrong, need your help


(Joey) #21

I’ve never heard that carbs are needed for hormonal function. Can you elaborate a bit? … which hormones didn’t work properly when you ate very few carbs, and how did you reach this conclusion?

Thanks for sharing you experience. It’s unlike anything I’ve heard before and I’d like to better understand.


(Marianne) #22

At first glance, I’d say you aren’t eating enough. Don’t count the calories and keep doing what you’re doing. I’d say it took me at least three months to become fat adapted. I knew it when it happened. The difference was night and day. Also, for now, I’d eat at least two meals a day and suspend any fasting for another month or so. Feed your body and let it relax and adjust. In the beginning I did a 24-hour fast, which wasn’t difficult hunger wise, but it just stressed me. I stopped then and really don’t do it anymore except that most of the time, I eat one meal a day (but that was after a while of eating regularly).


#23

Three months really? How old are you, is this adaption period age releated thing and what differences did you notice when become fatadapted?


(Bacon enough and time) #24

The time needed for fat-adaptation, also called keto-adaptation, varies from individual to individual. We say that it generally takes six to eight weeks, but some people regain their energy in three or four weeks, while others take considerably longer than eight weeks.

What happens is that after years of high-carbohydrate eating, the mitochondria in the skeletal muscle cells have been damaged by advanced glycation end-products (AGE’s), and certain cellular pathways involved in fatty-acid metabolism have been deactivated from lack of use. It takes a while for the mitochondria to heal themselves and to make new mitochondria; it also takes some time for the deactivated metabolic pathways to be reactivated. This is what we call fat-adaptation.

During this period, the muscles have been deprived of glucose (since our carb/glucose intake has been drastically reduced) and are limping along on ketones. What they really want, however, is fatty acids, and once we are fat-adapted again, they actually refuse glucose and ketones in favour of fatty acids. Fatty-acid metabolism is much “cleaner-burning” than glucose (for one thing, it produces no AGE’s), and the muscles use them to fuel endurance. Explosive power still requires glucose, however, so there is a lag period, even after endurance returns, until glycogen stores are filled back up and explosive power returns. In the absence of dietary carbohydrate, the liver manufactures glucose and stores it as glycogen. Glycogen in a muscle can only be consumed by that muscle, but the liver can release glycogen whenever there is an urgent need for it.


#25

Thanks for detailed explanation, i don’t feel fat adapted but after getting some improvement on my fatigue i think i can feel it / get it that state too :slight_smile:

Btw, i know i am new but this forum seems very helpful for keto :slight_smile: I recently discovered


(Bacon enough and time) #26

I have some sort of fatigue syndrome, the result of a viral infection in 2006, and on keto I don’t get the buzzing level of energy some people report, but I do feel normal again. It’s awfully nice to be able to mow the lawn and not have to spend the next day or two resting up, so I’m not complaining. Though the omicron variant of COVID has interefered with that, I am slowing getting back to (keto) normal again.


(Robin) #27

Glad to hear it, @PaulL! I am noticing longer stretches of mental clarity since omicron hammered me. Still losing some recent memories, but able to stay present in the moment. Only a few hiccups. I am afraid to jinx this, so I’ll just say I am trending upward.


#28

It’s quite possible you don’t eat enough. My SO is shorter and lighter than you but he would be starving with only 2000 kcal. It may be enough for you, it’s individual but quite possibly not enough. it may be the reason for fatigue after feeling okay in the beginning when you had some more fat.

Not everyone get energy when they get fat adapted, the same is true for OMAD. I feel just the same, it’s merely convenient to eat only once (and avoiding eating too much) unless I can’t eat big enough meals at that time. I have lowish-energy (it seems it gets better on carnivore…? hard to tell as there are so many other factors and I go off a lot… but I never ever felt very energetic), keto and fat-adaptation didn’t change it. Similarly to you, fat adaptation changed my hunger and that’s it. These things are individual and anyway, we have different keto styles, our past matters too, different circumstances… Of course we can’t experience the same changes. My brain feels the same on every woe too, by the way.

Carbs: It’s individual too. Some people need to go as low as possible, some even need to be extremely low to get into ketosis though it’s not that common. Others feel way better with a bit more carbs. Experiment and figure out what works for you.
I personally couldn’t function with <20g net carbs only in the beginning, I couldn’t even eat that little when I touched vegs and nuts (and no meat, yeah, that wasn’t helpful. but I got fat adapted with 40g net carbs, mostly from plants too) - but I didn’t get any noticeable benefits beyond the cute soft fat-adaptation hunger either. Eventually I went lower and it got WAY better. Many people say the less carbs is the better for them. Or that total carbs matter, to me only non-animal net ones do as far as I can tell but that should be quite low.
So it’s simply impossible to say what rules you should follow…
A bit more protein wouldn’t hurt though…

Supplements are individual too, I use none and I notice no problems as long as I eat enough meat. But many people need them. Sodium is the interesting electrolyte that is all over the place, some people function best with a lot, others with none except what they get from their fresh meat (and hat’s very little)… And some of us need to stay far from both and have a moderate amount of it. I imagine some people are fine with almost whatever…

Your minerals must be fine, I would change the macros. More protein, maybe a bit more fat too, I have no idea if you would work better with more carbs, I would change fat and protein first. Just a little? Don’t you feel it would be nice to have more of them? I often have these nudges. More eggs, more meat, more fat, less fat. Useful.

If you don’t have extra fat, why on Earth do you keep an energy deficit?

I don’t know what to say about water, I just follow my thirst and it’s perfect for me. I surely go over 2 liters in summer though I can’t measure it. I am a quite thirsty type especially in summer or during any exercise. I still don’t need to supplement sodium but if I drank a really huge amount, I surely would need that, certain things are unavoidable.


#29

Thanks for reply :slight_smile: I am sure before keto i was eating much more than 2000 kcal. I never did calculate but i was eating a lot burgers, pizza, fries, snacks, sodas etc. So i am very sure i was eating a lot more than 2000 on carbs. I started eating less because my appetite gone and eating less didn’t help either, appetite gone further. Last 2 days i am trying eat more and not sure for now but likely little bit increased my appetite. Targeting at least 2300-2400 kcal daily.


#30

Dont know ur build but losing fat becomes harder as you become leaner, if you calculated water loss in that, you havent lost that much, you are likely already quite lean.

I think you should eat as much as you can, not to force it or anything, but as much as is feasible.


(Marianne) #31

I’m 63 now. I was 60 at the time.

When I became fat adapted, I noticed that I had stamina, endless energy, didn’t get winded or have mild heard palpitations upon doing anything mildly strenuous (gardening, vacuuming, etc. - and yes, that used to happen to me doing those things), wasn’t hungry but ate heartily and enjoyed my food when I did eat a meal, didn’t feel tired (but slept well at night), etc.


(Marianne) #32

I think that is way more reasonable, but I still wouldn’t be afraid of eating more. For me, I still wouldn’t count calories. Just eat clean food, enjoy it, and stop when you feel you’ve had enough and are fortified (satiated). (Some people here do prefer to count calories and know how much they are consuming.) I don’t weigh myself, measure ketones or anything else, or count calories, and that is the way I prefer it - again, the beauty of keto is that you do what is comfortable to you. That may change and adjust from month to month, but it’s whatever works for you.


(Marianne) #33

Agreed, especially when someone is lean.


#34

I dont have any goal to lose weight etc, i am counting calories for get sure that i eat enough, otherwise i tend to eat vey less, very calorie deficit.


(Marianne) #35

Why - just trying to understand. Do you do this as weight/body fat management, or is eating like that a natural preference and comfortable to you? I’ve always liked to eat and that feeling of being satiated.


#36

I love to eat actually , i mean i was before keto, after keto my appetite slowly decreased. I am eating for to survive :slight_smile:


(Marianne) #37

Sounds good.


(Fabrizio) #38

Thank you for the explanation, I didn’t know. So I imagine that staying in ketosis for a long time should allow to eat more carbs without going out of ketosis.


(Fabrizio) #39

Hi SomeGuy,
I’ll try to elaborate my statement although I’ve not any specific preparation on human metabolism. I’ve taken some info by guys who speak on YouTube about ketogenic diet (expecially Leanne and DeLauer, that seem to be very prepared).

So they say thyroid just needs carbs to be converted from t3 to t4. In general it needs carbs for proper function. It looks like some people do fine with a little amount of carbs, and others needs more. This could be a reason why some people require a temporary carb reload to feel good after a long period of keto diet.

To sleep we need melatonin, which is converted from serotonin and tryptophan, taken by foods; until one is fat adapted (and some people also beyond) a certain amount of carbs is needed for this process. It looks like this is very subjective, and could be the reason for some “keto flu” symptoms or persistent insomnia for someone.

To build muscles carbs are also required or, at least, they speed up muscle building. After a workout, a little amount of carbs (De Lauer speaks of 15 g of glucose + 10 of fructose) in combination with a good amount of proteins allow proteins to build up properly in the muscles. I’m trying it one another day and I’ve not been kicked out from ketosis (anyway I am not still able to workout really; my workouts are simple walks, as my body is still very weak and skinny). I must say I’m gaining weight these days! (maybe it’s some muscles here and there… I hope).

I’m sorry I’m not able to motivate my statements scientifically, so if someone can prove they are wrong is welcome.


(Joey) #40

Thanks for this helpful info!

I must say I’m a bit surprised that carbs would contribute to hormonal function in such ways over the long term.

Yes, until someone is “fat-adapted” (through carb-restriction) then certainly when cutting out the dietary carbohydrates to which one is accustomed, it would easily have effects on how someone is feeling. Whether there’s a hormonal link that requires feeding carbs to resolve seems to be undermining the whole point of eliminating the carbs in the first place.

But since carbs are not a required nutrient I’m still surprised to hear they are necessary for proper hormonal function.

Then again, I have no meaningful expertise in this area. And how much expertise “Leanne and DeLauer” on YouTube might have is not a matter on which I have any insight.

Best wishes!