Why not reducing fat to lose weight in a keto diet?

(Not a cow) #31

Even with the metabolism of fat stores, you must maintain high enough calories (out) to continue to lose weight. To maintain high enough calories out, you have to maintain high enough calories in. ( Calories in = Calories out) Plus you need to restrict carb calories, and you need to restrict protein calories, to avoid high insulin reactions.

I donā€™t believe you can reach ideal amount of calories in, for your BMR, using your formula of low fat, low carbs, and moderate protein.

As i understand it, the body does not count fat from your fat stores as calories in.

#32

Fat stores are endogenous calories. Thatā€™s why we can store excess energy as fat: to be able to use it later as fuel. This is a beautiful system and would work well except that we are generally in a constant state of high insulin, which keeps us from accessing those stores. Drop the insulin, access the fat.

#33

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(mole person) #34

Exactly what @Madeleine has said. There is nothing wrong with going low fat if your body has enough fat stores to provide the balance. The diet @Arbre is on sounds similar to that which bariatric patients are put on and they donā€™t seem to suffer from undue metabolic slowdowns (very low carb, moderate body size appropriate protein, and low fat). As long as heā€™s not hungry and continuing to lose weight I donā€™t think he has anything to worry about.

Iā€™m curious @arbre, what are your macros? Do you know?

(mole person) #35

Also, itā€™s absolutely ketogenic. Heā€™ll be burning fat for fuel and so in ketosis, probably deep ketosis. Thatā€™s the definition. Ketogenesis is defined by the burning of fat for fuel in the absence of carbohydrates. Thatā€™s exactly what heā€™s doing.

#36

I believe you mean this one? If so, it looks like @Arbre has already read that. :smile:

Why would my metabolism slow down if Iā€™m getting cals from fat stores?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #37

@Ilana_Rose:

I eat 5 portions of 105.7kcal each (35g), with 15.4g of protein, 3.2g of HC (0.3g of which are sugars), 3.5g of fat (0.7g of which are saturated fats), and 9.8g of fibre (and 0.3g of salt).

Then, I eat two meals of vegetables per day. Usually cauliflower, broccoli, mushrooms, asparagus, or a simple salad (lettuce, cucumbers, sometimes a bit of tomato). I put quite a lot of good olive oil and salt. Unfortunately, I do not measure the weights of all this.

So, about 525 kcal from ā€œproductsā€ and then an unknown amount of kcal from vegetables + oil.

(mole person) #38

Thank you @Arbre. Is there a medical reasons why you are taking this particular approach of using ā€˜productsā€™? Why not formulate a similar macro diet but with whole foods? Are you a vegetarian or vegan?

(Shane) #39

I lost most of my weight doing low fat, low carbs, and moderate protein. Iā€™ve found it very hard to lose weight after going keto except when I do 3-4 days fasts every now and then.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #40

You are welcome, @Ilana_Rose

The only reason why I am taking this approach is that I looked at the list of dietologists included in my private health insurance in my city, and I found four using keto. I went with her and she told me she was using ā€œproductsā€ of a given brand (lignaform). I liked her, so I went with her.

A few years ago, I also did keto with another brand (pronokal), exactly the same methodology. I did it because my personal doctor (unfortunately she retired, for this reason I am not with her anymore) told me she had good references about keto diets (they were doing tests at the Hospital del Mar, a reputable hospital for medical research in Barcelona). She told me Pronokal was a brand doing keto for the general public. It went very well for me, and I remained with a low weight for a few years. But a change in lifestyle made me eat ā€œnormalā€ again ā€¦ and I recovered all the weight. And now here am I.

Note: I am neither a vegetarian or a vegan. But in my life, I tend to be a pescetarian, in general (I eat meat here and there, but not very often).

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #41

I will change towards a diet with whole foods, for sure. But for now, I want to be ā€œcontrolledā€ by my doctor. She told me she would recommend me to switch to whole food at some point in time.

(Jane) #42

Iā€™ve done low carb, low fat many times in my life - it was Atkins and I had a fear of fat from my programming so I also went low fat. In fact before I found keto I started out low carb (< 20) and low fat in November 2017.

Did I lose weight? Yes. Have I always lost weight going LC, LF? Yes.

The difference is I could not sustain it. I got SICK of the food. That is my n=1 and you may do great on it.

On keto my meals are delicious with the added fat, I never get tired of eating keto and I have maintained my weight for over a year - something I never could do on LC, LF. You have the added motivation of paying for a doctor so that will keep you on track (like I did paying for Weight Watchers) :wink:

For another n=1ā€¦ when I started adding butter to my morning coffee and upped my fats my skin and har improved remarkedly. And I felt better (absorbed more vitamins from nutrition? Just a guess). I did this while still losing and it did not affect my weight loss, even though I was terrified it would.

I did experience a stall several months after I added fats but I also stalled on Atkins in the past and because I was tired of the food it was easy to give up after a prolonged stall. Fasting broke my stall.

Please keep us posted on your progress! It is interesting to me how all the different variations of low carb work for different people.

(mole person) #43

Yes. What @Janie said is perfect. Itā€™s not that calorie restricted/low carb/low fat wonā€™t work or isnā€™t keto, but rather that itā€™s not sustainable in the long run for anybody. It seems, however, that @Arbre understands that heā€™ll have to increase his fats as he approaches his ideal body weight.

Iā€™m also interested in how his diet progresses. Keep posting your results!

(bulkbiker) #44

It sounds as if you are running a variant of the ā€œNewcastle Dietā€
ultra low calorie meal replacement with some green veg. You will be in starvation ketosis because you are eating very little.
My question would be what does your doctor intend to your transition on to when you come to the end of the 8-12 week period that this regime is intended to be?

(Jennibc) #45

Blockquote AFAIK, fat does not lead to less hunger. The key is low carbs, not high fats.

This is not my experience at all. When I eat higher fat, it takes care of my hunger. Protein does not put a dent in my hunger even though supposedly should.

(Jill F.) #46

How much weight have you lost so far @Arbre? It will be interesting to see how you lose while on controlled diet from dr versus how much you cam lose eating whole foods.
Here is my take on this whole thing. I have done Weight Watchers, fad diets, counted calories , everything over the years to lose weight. I was a size 14 for most of my adult life, needing to lose 40 to 50 pounds constantly. I could always lose 20 and then I would go right back to my old habits and gain it all back.
I am 45 year old woman, post menopausal with arthritis. I am a psychotherapist and have a high stress job. I also have a severely autistic teenager so the cards were stacked against me to lose weight due to stress, lack of time to exercise, etc. I have successfully lost 42 pounds since December 2018 eating high fat, lots of steak, butter, and green veggies. It has worked for me, kept me satisfied, and I do not overeat. I have finally learned to listen to my body and give it more when it asks for it. I have learned to eat smart and healthier and I no longer stress eat.
I know, for myself anyway, had I gone a route of a controlled diet from a dr, a box, a supplement, or a program I would lose yes, but as SOON as I was on my own I would regain it.
To each their own, but I personally think this long term is a recipe for failure in your weight loss journey. Do we need to eat 150g a day in fat longterm? No. Do I still eat that much now that I have reached my goal weight? No I dont. However Ineat enough to stay satisfied and avoid those cravings that lead to my relapses.
Please dont take that as an attack or personal, it is just my take on the science and process behind keto. All I know is this has worked well for me and I will never go back to how I ate before.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #47

@Ilana_Rose and @Janie: thank for your wishes!

I think I am understanding a bit better the role of fat: at the beginning, when one has lots of stored fats, with a low carb, low fat diet, we enter into ketosis, leading to higher brain sensitivity to leptin. Since we have lots of stored fats, this leads to lots of leptin. So the brain is satisfied, even though we are eating little (we use a lot of the stored fat).

But then, when we start getting slim, we have less stored fat, so less leptin, so the brain starts complaining and this leads to hunger. I hypothesize that increasing the amount of eaten fat is the ā€œrightā€ approach then: with the new fat, the brain does not ā€œcomplainā€ so much, and we have less hunger.

So then, I can answer my initial question (please correct me if you disagree): at the beginning of the keto diet, it is safe to eat a low fat diet. But as soon as we are getting slimmer, the amount of fat in the diet has to increase.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #48

Exactly, it seems it is (a variant of) the Newcastle Diet. I leave the following links regarding the Newcastle Diet for reference:

About transitioning: yes, I asked this question to my doctor. She did not give me a precise answer. She told me we would do a plan together. The key part is not doing a ā€œperfect planā€, but a reasonably good plan that I can keep for the long term.

I am thinking about this issue. One, is that I tend to be a pescetarian, naturally (I like meat, though). Two, I know I will have to return to cook for myself, and only buy basic products. I see there are many keto recipes, so maybe a good idea would be to have a list of good recipes and put a paper on the fridge with all the recipes I like, which are keto friendly. But I am still thinking what to do for the long term.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #49

@MommyJill2005 I have lost 7.3kg in 3 weeks, a 7.6% of my initial weight. I think you have done a great job!

(John) #50

Looks like he is following this program, based on the brand name mentioned. It is in Italian but Google can translate it:

https://www.therascience.com/ins-il-metodo-lignaform-55.htm

It looks like after an initial phase, which is heavily focused on their packaged products, that they introduce more fats and carbs in the next phase.

So basically a managed, commercial weight-loss program based on buying their products and working through diet clinics associated with them.

There are and have been many such approaches to weight loss. Not exactly what I think of as a ā€œwell formulated ketogenic dietā€ but it may work for Arbre.