Why is there not a differentiation between keto diet and "low wheat" diet?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #1

Keto diet focuses on carbs in general, irrespective if the source of the carbs is sugar, wheat or broccoli.

It seems to me that for many people, this approach can be further optimized. Of course, there will always be people who cannot eat vegetables (the daughter of Jordan Peterson), but in my limited experience, these are very few in number.

In general, most people I know of have problems with sugar and wheat, but no problem whatsoever with vegetables.

So, I do not understand why there is no a diet which is similar to keto (low in sugars and refined carbs, high in fat, moderate in protein) but accepting carbs such as vegetables, for example (there could be a discussion with fruits and legumes, for sure).

Is there an explanation for this?

(Jack Bennett) #2

That sounds a bit like a Whole30, Bulletproof, Perfect Health Diet, or Paleo approach. Higher in carbs than keto, but still lower than a SAD, and encouraging of higher-starch vegetables than you would get on keto.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #3

Because keto is perfectly accepting of vegetables. The 20 g “rule” is not a rule… and anyway you can get a decent amount of veg in at 20 g. But many people who find they really want those veggies also do better with a slightly higher carb, but still ketogenic, diet. Almost as if their body is telling them something. There’s no one way to do keto. You do you. It doesn’t need a different name.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #4

Vegetables consist mostly of resistent starches (fibre) that do not count as carbs. Only starchy vegetables like potatos and bananas are excluded. Broccoli contains something like 3g carbs per 100g.

There is a well defined difference between fibre and carbs. Carbs can be broken down into glucose and fructose in our digestive tract, while fibre is the part that we can’t use for energy (mostly) or that is converted by our gut bacteria into fatty acids, therefore contributiong to a keto diet.

Having said that, the main issue with carbs is hyperinsulinemia and metabolic syndrome. People with metabolic syndrome need to stay keto to avoid the damaging effects of high insulin levels, people that are metabolically sensitive may eat a bit more carbs, hence “low carb diet” that allows about 75g a day (or whatever, depending on whom you ask).

(Robert C) #5

Keep in mind that the 20 gram carb limit is not somehow Keto. It is not a diet of specific foods - it is ensuring your body is in a fat accessing mode of operation.

Keto is measured by your blood ketones being at a level that shows that you can (if you are careful with your dietary fat) access your body fat stores.

Specifically, if you eat a bunch of sweet potato and your blood ketones go to 0.0 - you are not burning fat (body or dietary). If, on the other hand, you eat a bunch of sweet potato and your ketone level still measures 0.5 to 1.5 - you body is burning fat (stored or dietary). Everyone’s body is different and their sleep, exercise and current hormonal situation is different. So, some people have to really minimize carbs (only incidental carbs from leafy greens) to keep ketone levels up and some can have a bunch more - simply burning them off during a marathon training run.

(Bob M) #6

Over time, what has happened to me is that I’ve realized how many problems I do have with vegetables. (Wheat was easy, as it causes a lot of issues once I eat it.) For instance, zucchini and I don’t get along. I can eat some fermented vegetables, but not all (raw sauerkraut for instance).

It takes eating mainly meat and then trying vegetables to realize what’s happening.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #7

There could be regional differences, too. Valter Longo said to eat products produced traditionally by your ancestors.

I cannot imagine anybody in the Mediterranean region that could be negatively affected by zucchini. But maybe people from other regions may have different reactions (and the same may happen vice versa, of course).

(bulkbiker) #8

Whilst happily selling his Prolon meal replacement…?
Also I don’t think anyone ever had vegan ancestors… Longo has lost all credibility in my opinion.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #9

In Longo’s book there is a clear description of what to do, without Prolon. I have never bought Prolon (it is not sold in my country).

I think that Longo knows very well what he says. My ancestors were almost pescetarians (the recommendation by Longo). They were poor (as most Spaniards then) and they were eating mostly vegetables and fruits. Eggs were for Christmas, as well as chicken and pork. Meat was eaten maybe once per year. But they were eating quite a lot of fish (they were living in a coastal town with a port).

I think the idea that Mediterranean food is mostly grains is pure bullshit. For sure they were eating bread (they had a big consumption of energy due to their work), but mostly they were eating vegetables, legumes and fish.

(Windmill Tilter) #10

There is only 1 ketogenic diet. It was created to treat diabetes a century ago and it bears a resemblance to what we call keto on the forum. Hence the nickname. Basically, nobody here is doing the ketogenic diet, so feel free to experiment with what gives you the most energy throughout the day, and makes you feel the healthiest. The general guideline of >20g is just a guideline for what keeps most folks in ketosis and gets consistently good results. That’s what I do, and I find it pretty simple and effective.

I do “keto” with carbs <20g/day because I do extended fasting for fat loss and the reversal of metabolic syndrome. I’ve done dozens of 84hr fasts both as a carb burner and as a fat burner. When I eat >20g carb per day, fasting is 10x easier. My energy is higher and my mind is sharper. If that wasn’t the case, I’d be doing something closer to what you’re proposing. Except the fruit part. That’s nuts to me. Sugar is poison. I watched my great aunt lose her eyesight, her left foot, her right foot, and then her life over the course of 5 years. She ate fruit and candy the whole way down. I view sugar as an addictive poison (in all it’s forms).

Having said all that, personally I think most folks would be miles ahead of the SAD diet and would naturally hit a pretty healthy weight with just basic 3 guidelines:

  1. Don’t buy any food made with more than 1 ingredient
  2. Don’t buy any food that can sift through your colander
  3. Keep sugar under 5g/day

People did just fine before they started eating food made in factories whose priority is shelf life, and whose key marketing tool is hyperpalatability & addiction. Do what works for you.

(Bob M) #11

My ancestry is Italian (50%) and Polish (less). Zucchini and I don’t get along.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #12

My son has Slavic genes (50%), so his “gene combination” is close to yours. So far, he can cope with zucchini, but we will see later.

(Bob M) #13

I personally have issues with some plants. Not with potatoes, but with sweet potatoes (give me heart burn and other problems). Green/red peppers have to be very cooked. I’ve cut down the number of plants I eat, as I find negatives for them.

I am consequently around 95% carnivore. Still have coffee, tea, and some plants sometimes. Had spinach (cooked, in high fat sauce) last night. My lunches this week will be 100% carnivore. Dinners will be mainly to 100% carnivore.

Also, you might want to include seed oils in your list. I’ve reached the conclusion they are worse than sugar.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #14

I only eat olive oil, this is due to my upbringing.

I am considering coconut oil, though. Is it good or not? (some Harvard professor said it was toxic, despite its recent popularity).

(Windmill Tilter) #15

Bear in mind that metabolism is a moving target. If you eat only zucchini, your body gets very good at eating zucchini. If you eat only only hamburger and bacon, you get pretty lousy at eating zucchini.

I raise any eyebrow when folks discover food “allergies” and “intolerances” after 20 weeks of eating only hamburger and ribeye. Does it really surprise anybody that their body has trouble dealing with a slice of birthday cake after months on carnivore? Our digestive system is a bacterial colony, and our endocrinol systems optimize around our long term dietary intake. I suspect it’s less that people “discover” food intolerances after months of keto; it’s more that they commit genocide on carb specific bacterial colonies (you too vegans you murderers! :yum:) and experience the digestive consequences.

Before anyone freaks out, I’m not discounting in the least that autoimmune disorders and food allergies are real. I know that they are, and I know how serious they are. I think they affect a very small minority of people. You know what the cutting edge treatment for potentially lethal food allergies is these days? Medically administered microdoses of that exact food to build tolerance.

I say all this as someone for whom keto has been an absolute miracle. My blood sugar has never been better. I’ve thrown my glucose monitor in the trash. Rather than needing to eat every two hours, I can happily go with out eating for days and have more energy than I ever had when I was eating SAD. My bodyfat is dropping by the week. Keto has been truly transformative in my life. I don’t assume however that <20g/day is the optimal diet for an 80 year life span based on this experience. I just haven’t found the data that supports that conclusion.

(Bob M) #16

I think you’re wrong. If you were correct, then all plants would cause issues and you’d need to overcome those. But all plants don’t cause issues for me, only some. I can eat spaghetti squash, but not zoodles (zucchini noodles). Why? And don’t tell my my bacteria is good for squash but not zucchini, since I eat spag squash only in season. So, a few times per year, at most.

Why do sweet potatoes cause an issue while white potatoes do not?

Uncooked bell peppers cause an issue but highly cooked do not?

Raw sauerkraut causes an issue but fermented pickles do not? Cooked sauerkraut does not?

Your theory can’t explain that.

And I find it difficult to believe that a diet we ate for thousands of years is not good for us. I find no data against that position.

(Windmill Tilter) #17

Ok.

Untrue.

Enzymes & bacteria. Different plants make different combinations of molecules. Neither the bacterial composition of our digestive systems, nor our ability to create enzymes are static however (unless we have a genetic disorder).

Try eating only sweet potatoes for a few months and see if your intolerance improves (hint: it probably will). Vegans find that after years of eating vegan, when they try eating meat they discover they’re allergic to it and/or have intolerance to it. Could they ever hope to go carnivore??? Of course they can.

I could be entirely wrong though, I’m hardly an expert on the subject. It’s possible that most vegans really do have a genetic disorder for example. It’s entirely possible that most folks on keto really are discovering latent food allergies. It just seems less likely to me than that they’ve optimized their metabolisms for eating 99% fat/protein for their energy over the course of many months. Like I said though, I’m not an expert and I’ve already exhausted my knowledge on the subject.

I can say with certainty that after a year of keto, when I cheat and I eat a bunch carbs I feel like total crap. That’s my n=1. I don’t know why that is with any certainty.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #18

This is just not true. You’ve been here a while and know that grains, sugar, legumes, and root vegetables in general are not recommended for a ketogenic diet. There are other things such as vegetable oil and dairy that’s not high fat that should be eliminated as well as processed foods.

While it’s true that you can eat anything that allows you to stay in ketosis that approach is not recommended. Eating a whole food diet of single ingredients is the best approach for your health, but theoretically you could eat white sugar, protein powder and canola oil and be in ketosis and losing weight while destroying your health. So the anything that fits my macros philosophy is greatly flawed in my opinion. Eating grains is harmful…period. Gluten is bad…period. They are bad for your body in many ways, read up. You can eat whatever you want but all this info has been given to you before by me and many others here. You should be able to choose your carbs wisely now and know the difference between eating broccoli versus white sugar or wheat and fake KETO food. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #19

There’s no need for a similar diet, you just described KETO except we eliminate refined carbs completely. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #20

But the rule is to eat less than 20g of carbs, irrespective of the source of carbs.