Why does Marty Kendall now hate keto?


(Bob M) #1

Anyone seen the latest posts by Marty Kendall?

https://optimisingnutrition.com/blog/

These are not entitled “Keto mistakes” or “Keto misconceptions” or “My thoughts on keto theories”.

Instead, they’re called Keto “Lies”.

What happened to Mr. Kendall?

Personally, I didn’t pay attention to any of these so-called “lies”, so what’s he’s saying doesn’t really apply to me. At one time, I did try a (much) higher fat diet, but I realized quite quickly it was not satiating for me. So, I tried a Ted Naiman high P:E approach, for many of my meals. I found higher protein, lower fat more my style, though it is not without its faults.

But once you start talking “fat”, boy do you end in a quagmire. What type of fat? It’s possible that a keto diet of almonds and nut butters, chicken and pork, avocados, store-bought salad dressings or mayo, could be bad. But that’s probably because of the PUFAs, which at one time was ignored.

Even when I ate “high fat” diet, I probably ate a diet quite high in PUFAs. I did not know better.

And let’s not get into “dairy”, as that is its own quagmire.

I read a few of these blog posts, but after a while, I stopped reading. Not only did they not apply to me, but I test myself enough to figure out what is applicable and what helps/doesn’t help. If I think something isn’t working, I try something else.

And I’m not at all angry that someone – even if they were completely “wrong” – advocated a position, say about higher fat being better. I try it, and if it doesn’t work, I don’t use it. Not a big deal.

I’m just surprised Mr. Kendall keeps going (and going and going…) with these. 11 of them? Why?


#2

I just started to read it…
Well, feeling full, feeling satisfied and not being hungry for a long time are 3 different things in my life… And being perfectly satiated at the end of my meal is another thing entirely…

I can imagine one feels or consider satiation differently. People may have wrong signals. I can eat to satiation and overeat or undereat on keto, it depends on my food choices and timing…
Fat to satiation may or may not work for people but lie…?

And I never heard that fat is the most satiating macronutrients. It’s protein for most people but we can’t just live on protein. Of course we need much fat and if we suddenly need much more energy, we mostly need fat, not much more protein (maybe a little if working out is the reason for needing more energy. but not proportionally. and I personally already eat over 2g/kg for lean bodyweight when I don’t exercise so…)

Is it that hard to understand?

Of course we need different fat:protein ratios and amounts. we do our experiments, fine tune our woe, that’s normal.
But dismissing a basic advice that surely works for many… I wouldn’t dream about that and I don’t find added fat satiating at all.
Oh and we don’t even need the most satiating woe all the time. If I use my top satiating items, I can’t help undereating, at least for a while but that’s not so good either. Most people are way more prone to it.

Not all fats are the same satiation wise even for the same person. My fat sources are all over the place, some of my least and top satiating food items are mostly fat (as far as I can tell, it’s not like I ate only fat meals to test it but I recognized things during the years).

The potato in the article… Interesting as I just read a comment on the “CICO” site I use for tracking about some translated transcript and potatoes were called the most satiating stuff too…
Maybe not the least satiating food of mine but as it’s carbs, it’s pretty bad (and I definitely could eat a lot of it after I got satiated with some proper food). Sometimes I wonder how big part of the human population can use these results due to being close to their individual reality…

Low-fat hard to overeat :smiley: Yep, it’s not about me at all. And it matters if it’s mostly carbs or mostly protein or it has both…

And even if fattier food makes us eating more, I don’t find this informative! It matters a lot what we eat. If I eat sour cream or lots of added fat? Great way to boost my calories. Even “better” if I just grab my chocolate jar, ridiculously easy to overeat quite seriously.
But if I eat some fatty pork roast and even avoid carbs, I surely will end up with a lowish-calorie day even if I stuff myself.

Of course one (not everyone but many) can drink and eat fat galore and not losing fat on keto (while there is a need and desire for it). We should do it a bit smarter… Choosing our food well.

And WHY would we need top nutrition density from our food? I just need enough for my body… I don’t eat crappy food with little nutrition so I can afford my very nutritious food that is energy rich (great, I need it) therefore its nutrition/energy ratio is smaller than, IDK, some lean meat.
Eating 3-400g protein (unnecessarily, making my food more expensive and way less enjoyable. I eat way more protein I need because it’s the best for me but going even higher just because? hell no) wouldn’t do good to me. So I stick to my preferred fat intake, thank you.

I stop reading as it just upset me a bit and I can do something more useful with my time…


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

@ctviggen Does he? Maybe he says ‘lies’ rather than ‘misconceptions’ for emphasis and pithiness. I’m at work so can’t respond until later. I skimmed ‘Lie’ #11 and it looks like a realistic discussion of fats. Not anti-keto. More later. Thanks for the link.


(Bob M) #4

@Shinita Jimmy Moore’s book “Keto Clarity”:

Advocated high fat. After reading it, I went on a very high fat diet. Which I then found did not have the satiety I thought it would.

So, there definitely was some “more fat is better” mantra for a while. Let’s not forget bullet proof coffees and fat bombs (both of which I tried and don’t use anymore) too.

@amwassil Ask yourself why he calls them “lies” and why he needs 11 posts for this.

I’ve seen the arguments for and against eating fats, and have eaten both high fat and higher protein, lower fat. There is still a discourse between Amber O’Hearn (likes high “fat”, meaning fat from animal flesh, not rendered) and Ted Naiman (prefers lower fat, higher protein). I think both are correct, at least sometimes and with some people.

My issue is there’s really no reason to be denigrating to keto. “Keto misconceptions” is just as good as “Keto lies”, and is less inflammatory.

If you’ve seen any arguments between Mr. Kendall on Twitter with Amber O’Hearn and the like, you’ll see he thinks he’s “right” and what he’s doing is “right”, and they of course are “wrong”. That hubris I think is my issue, and this extends to his articles and his presentation.

His “lies” are really things with which he disagrees, because he is of course “right” and you – if you believed or perpetrated those “lies” – are wrong. He’s right, you aren’t.

I think all of science is merely theories. Some are correct; some aren’t; some we’re not sure. And this can vary per person or – dare I say it? – even for the same person over time. I think starting out on keto with high fat might not be bad. I think if you’re exercising a ton, higher fat might not be bad.

Case in point: read the fasting article from Mr. Kendall. He did not like fasting. I have to say that the lowest fasting insulin and blood pressure I got when I was fasting a ton. And I’ve had good experience with it.

But Mr. Kendall is, of course, correct. And I’m wrong.


(Allie) #5

Don’t even know who he is… tbh I don’t worry about anyone else’s opinions as my body tells me all I need to know.


(bulkbiker) #6

Desperate to be a new anti-keto relevant person?

Never thought much of him anyway, his wife is a T1 diabetic, which led him down the diet route… talks some sense but a lot of crap too.


(Jack Bennett) #7

The angle that Kendall promotes is that protein, fiber, and micronutrients are the main drivers of satiety while carb and fat are less desirable “energy” calories. The goal for fat loss and body the imposition is to increase protein as a percentage of dietary calories. It’s very similar to Ted Naiman’s PE Diet as someone posted upthread.

e.g. https://youtu.be/ilduzDTFUlQ


(Anthony) #8

I’d say many of us went through some of those “phases” as they were popular with keto internet personalities. Or at least I did anyway.

I only skimmed some of his posts, not the entire site, but my experience says he’s not wrong about a lot of it and it’s probably good for this to be put out there. When you come across Internet forum discussions through google you have to pay attention to the dates of posts, some forums are decades old and can contain out of date information. That said his blog seems rely on a bit of shock value and multiple posts for more clicks, he seems a little combative also.

I’ve actually been thinking recently that the main driver for the SAD not working well for me was the low protein percentage of my diet. Low protein intake causing low satiety and frequent hunger, but I didn’t know it and consumed more food at whatever macro ratio it was that I was eating. I’ll just guess at 40/20/40 f/p/c so I got way too many calories on my way to enough protein.

Let me frame it slightly differently. Protein doesn’t drive my satiety, it drives my hunger. If I meet that need I can backfill my energy requirements with whatever else. That backfill is far more variable in quantity than my protein need/hunger. So while I think there’s something to the high P:E idea, I believe it’s slightly off the mark.

This has also been my experience—the changing needs over time. It makes a lot of sense though, I’m certain my metabolic landscape looks different to my body as a 190 pound guy who weight lifts and hikes than it did as a 290 pound sedentary daily drinker. Put that way, how could it not? My needs are evolving, so too should my diet.

Different things clearly work for different people, I had poor experience with fasting but there’s plenty of people who swear by it.

I think it boils down to the fact that these bloggers/keto “authorities” need to create a certain amount of dogma to keep their followers from straying to a different camp. They’re trying to make a living off of this after all. That’s the main appeal to me here, nobody’s selling me anything, it’s strictly theory or advice. Frequently worth at least what I paid.


#9

I didn’t read all the paragraphs under them, just read the “lies” but I agree with all of them. Keto has as much dogma as SAD does. Keto did a ton for me, and I still recommended it to a a lot of people, but the points he hit on I agree with. You can eat standard keto and still agree with what he said. The difference is whether you blindly repeat what others say and believe it or not.

I find that in the handful of keto places I exist in, here is the majority of people that would disagree with all of that, which is fine, but most other places most would think that way by default. I find a (lot) more “why am I stalled” or “I can’t loose” “why am I gaining” “keto isn’t working” stuff here than anywhere else. Honestly, that was one of the things that started my way of thinking starting to change on this stuff.


#10

I think Marty Kendall has an effective approach to nutrition. He’s just not all-in in the diverse keto cult. So he highlights the flaws he observes.


#11

great answer cause one size will never fit all in how each of us require to eat at ‘what amt of time on plan’ as we adapt and change. Cool.


#12

Wanna be? What? I like your post Mark!


(Bob M) #13

I have a shirt that says “Keep calm and keto on”.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

I actually read this one, at least most of it, and don’t think he’s saying anything most of us would find unusual. In fact, I found pretty much most of it sound advice. My take is he’s cautioning those who don’t observe what’s going on with themselves and adjust to suit, but instead just ‘follow the formula’ as they misunderstand it even when it’s not working. Example: if you want to burn fat and you’re not, eat even more fat. Not just a little, but lots. Not just to satiety, but lots more. Fat is magic. I think we’d all agree that’s not going to work well.

So, I think he’s saying “Keto Lies” just to get your attention. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says, but I don’t find it anti-keto.

PS: I really dislike the way Discourse will not refer to the post I am responding to because it is Bob’s post immediately previous. It forces me to do this: @ctviggen to alert him to my response.


(Bob M) #15

As with everything, I think…it depends. Some people do well with high P:E; others do less well.

If I had to guess, I think the people doing best with high P:E are (typically) male, younger, more muscular, doing short, intense workouts. Anyone exercising a lot likely needs higher fat (and may even need higher carbs). Higher fat may also be better for things like ketone production, which for some is important.

Lately, I’ve been testing low fat, high protein meals versus meals with higher fat (generally, saturated fat). For me, the high protein meals do just about as well or as well. But it’s also hard to test, when using only a single meal.


(Bob M) #16

You might as well give up tagging me. I don’t look at tags, personal mail, direct mail, etc. No time for that.

image

My weekends are completely full doing house projects, and I’m only here (or at one of the other sites I frequent) when I get a brief respite.


(Jack Bennett) #17

He also did a video introduction to the ebook: https://youtu.be/5EVMITcQIZQ