Why do we sometimes get thrown out of Ketosis 2

(Doug) #7

Approximately - we have about 100 grams of glycogen in the liver and 400 grams in muscles when the storage is full. Bigger people will have more. Glycogen is a carbohydrate and has ~4 calories per gram, so that’s around 2000 calories. Those with a lot of muscle mass could have a considerably higher figure.

Things get ‘fuzzy’ pretty fast, I think. Even when eating no carbs, the liver makes some glucose, and I’m wondering if some does not get stored as glycogen. And on the “empty tank” part, I think it really takes a while to get there.

We don’t just use glycogen and then completely shut that off and switch over to burning fat. During prolonged exercise, as glycogen stores get depleted, the body starts burning fat, and that gradually increases as glycogen gets less and less. I don’t know if we get to zero glycogen or how close to it, if not.

Even as those energy sources get mixed somewhat toward the end of glycogen consumption, it’s still common to feel a severe energy decline as the body substantially moves into burning fat. This is the “hitting the wall” phenomenon for marathoners at about mile 20 or 30+ kilometers. If one is well fat-adapted, I’d think this would be lessened, but it’s still an individual thing, and for the given individual, long training sessions while burning only fat usually help - the body gets better at burning fat.

I’ve never felt any changes in my brain or head when going from ketosis back to substantial carbs, but I think some people do. For me more just a general sluggishness and “loaded-down” feeling overall, like I’m struggling once again with high insulin.

Good question. I would think the ultimate would be running entirely on one’s stored fat - that way the body isn’t using any energy at all on digestion. However, if burning fat, either one’s own or from eating it, then there is a built-in disadvantage in that it takes more oxygen to metabolize fats versus carbs, as carbs come with some oxygen built-in.

There have been impressive results with elite athletes who train on a ketogenic basis, all the way to possibly increasing the number of mitochondria (the ‘powerhouses of the cell’) in some of our tissue. To some extent, such adaptations would at least partially offset the advantages of carbs as a fuel.

Since diving is such a special case - using only one load of breath - I think the single biggest thing is to practice holding your breath. There are a few other things described if you search for “how to improve freediving,” etc.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #8

That’s not exactly how I would express it, since both carbohydrates and fatty acids are combinations of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and both yield equivalent amounts of ATP for the same energy cost of metabolising them. The main difference is that glucose metabolism is faster, and does not need to take place within a mitochondrion. The glycogen store in skeletal muscle is quickly mobilisable, and therefore important for fast-twitch, explosive performance. Fatty acids, as I understand things, take longer to mobilise and metabolise, so they are a better fuel for endurance performance.

I can’t pretend to understand all of Dr. Phinney’s and Prof. Volek’s research, but it is clear that fat-adaptation gives significant performance benefits to athletes, and Volek’s team recently demonstrated that glycogen stores in fat-adapted athletes eventually return to the same level as seen in carb-adapted athletes (though not immediately after fat-adaptation).

As you mention, fatty-acid metabolism depends on the health and number of mitochondria, and exercise is very helpful in promoting both.

(John Drewett) #9

I’m not sure about all of this and it is late on this side of the ocean , what is interesting to me about breath hold is it isn’t really the amount of 02 that limits one’s breath hold rather that urge to breath comes from C02 building up in the body and with practice you can develop a tolerance to C02 . There is another fascinating thing that happens and it is called the Mamailian Dive Reflex ( like it comes from Whales and Dolphins who were Elephant like creatures who wandered back into the ocean eons ago :slight_smile: ) any as you go deeper the 02 moves to the brain and the lungs and away from the limbs with the help of the water pressure . The danger of passing out is when coming up in an too much of an 02 deprived state as the pressure comes off the 02 moves back out an away , the black out always happens as you approach the surface. Regarding the metabolism and stuff to some extent it is addressed in this article ( are we allowed to post links here : https://peterattiamd.com/can-fasting-help-athletes-hold-their-breath-longer/

(John Drewett) #10

What I did learn about fast and slow twitch muscles most recently was from this guy by the name of Inigo San Millan ( I began listening to Peter Attia and that is how I became interested in eating this way ) . Two things I was exposed to that may bear repeating is 1. he is going to argue that the best way to improve fat burning and lactic acid clearance is by spending a lot of time in Zone 2 . He is going to say Zone 1 begins when you move your toes in the morning and Zone 3 will begin when your body begins to request more energy than you can provide than from fatty acid metabolism or to the best way to improve the density and number of the mitochondria is by walking :slight_smile: or at the point before your breath becomes labored , something like that . That you can continue to increase the amount of work you do with fatty acid metabolism alone and measure it in watts . Something about how when the lactic acid begins to spill over into the blood stream that then is when you shifted to the the other gas tank , maybe that is correct. Another interesting point I got from this guy ( he does muscle biopsies and counts and measures their mitochondria and is the Tour de France coach for the USA or something . Anyhow the best way to become fat adapted if I understood this right was to walk fast but not to fast :slight_smile: That only when the demand for exceeds what the mitochondria can provide ( I think lactase ? ) do we begin to burn glucose rather than fatty acid but in the cytoplasm rather than in the mitochondria . The other thing I thought was of interest was that when we think of fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers we should not think of how fast they twitch . Rather fast would mean something like how much time they can go before they fire again . That slow twitch muscle cells may be filled with a lot of mitochondria and that fast twitch muscle cells need to burn glucose . I got interested in all of this because I know a lot of people are prediabetic , like half of the US population and this Keto thing or that most people are sick and that fat adaptation is a good way to get healthy again. What I know comes from listening to 3 podcast so I’m not sure exactly what. im talking about nor can I defend it .

(Bunny) #11

Diabetes is an insulin problem not a glucose problem, are you diabetic?

Insulin stops ketone production. Keeps them stabilized and under control.

You don’t want high ketones just like you don’t want high glucose? Insulin is always needed to control ketones but insulin is not always required for glucose uptake, however insulin is required for amino acids.

If you don’t eat 4 or 5 hours before going to sleep your body will naturally go into ketosis and burn it’s own fat lipids even on a higher carb diet like 150 grams of carbohydrates.

Not sure if that is true if you are diabetic because that may be the reason people get diabetes in the first place, is eating too much within a 24 hour period?

If your eating more than you could stuff into a racket ball and your sedentary, then your eating too much?

Active two racket balls?

Lift weights 4 racket balls?

(John Drewett) #12

Thanks Atomic Space Bunny ( I’m gonna call my little girl that in the morning ) I’ll need to take another look at your post but I’m active , I breath hold dive to 20 meters and swim 4 to 6 k and what else I was doing the gym 4 or 5 times a week but now I’m stuck in the stair well which I’ve learned to enjoy I also love the structural stuff with Eric Wong . In any case I figured out the carb thing and came to the conclusion that counting carbs is just a good metric for the glucose and the insulin thing , but they seem to talk a lot about how many carbs and it was/is confusing, that what I’m feeling the answer is now , im not diabetic but I bet I have metabolic disease and weighed 283 on April 4 when the lock down began with a AC1 or is it A1C was 5.9 and I dropped it to 4.9 in just a few weeks and I hit 250 today , I also do boxing but I’m pretty fat . The keto thing has helped my health in a lot of ways and I’m learning .

(Bob M) #13

Ah, what?

I guarantee you can eat as much meat in a 24 hour period as you want and you’ll never get diabetic. (A side issue: what is “eating too much”?)

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

Or fat. Never get diabetic from fat either. So that leaves carbs/glucose as the primary suspect. Diabetes is a disease of disfunctional carb/glucose metabolism. Might even be accurate to call it a disease of carb/glucose poisoning. Of course it involves insulin, which is trying hopelessly to cope with the cascade of failures.

PS: As Bob points out below, it probablymaybe involves a screwed O6/O3 ratio and PUFA overload in conjunction or consequence.

(Bob M) #15

For you, I’d just test it out. If you are new to keto/low carb, and you’re exercising (as you are), it can take a while to transition. I’d guess 4 weeks minimum, but expect even longer.

Try that first.

At some point, you could try a “targeted ketogenic diet” (TKD), which is where you basically eat some carbs sometimes. I did this for a while, eating higher carbs the first meal after a workout. I THINK it might have helped, though the carbs I chose (sweet potato, etc.) tended not to agree with me. On my normal keto diet, I NEVER get acid reflux or the like, but eating these carbs, I did.

I went back to eating keto.

Anyway, I said “I THINK it might have helped”, as I was gaining strength, as gauged by the number of pushups I could do. Having stopped the TKD, I am still gaining strength, so it’s unclear. Maybe I did get faster recovery? Hard to measure that, as I only workout three days a week.

Some people really like TKDs though.

(Bob M) #16

Well, I could see it being a little more complex than that, perhaps PUFAs + carbs (though I got fat drinking beer, eating pizza and ice cream, which I think is low PUFA…), but I see the point. It’s not the meat or fat. Unless you’re vegan, then OF COURSE it’s the meat and fat (and not the carbs/PUFAs).

(Bunny) #17

I’m sure the ancestors were manipulating there dietary intake?

As in modern times us monkeys still can’t figure out that we eat too much?

Oh I have bad genes?

Oh it’s the carbs?

I like the quote from Forrest Gump “Stupid is as stupid does?”

Too many visceral “Ah What’s?” and not enough cerebral stimulation?

(Doug) #18

Cool, Paul. I never dreamed that glycogen would go to the same level.

It still takes a lot more oxygen to use fatty acids, since they only have 2 oxygens, with up to 30+ carbons, while carbs tend much more toward equality. By far, the most common fatty acids in stored triglycerides/human fat have 18 carbons (59+%) or 16 carbons (31+%). So if we give them a percent ‘score’ of oxygen/carbon, they’re at 11 and 13, while glycogen and glucose are at 83 and 100.

Not talking about diving in water here :smile: but oxygen in general is free and unlimited to us, and fat is more energy dense than carbs, so it’s not a straight-up comparison as far as energy production, but when we use a given amount of oxygen to burn fat, less ATP is produced than when we use it to burn glucose or glycogen (oxygen being the limiting factor in human work when burning fat or glycogen).

Well… :slightly_smiling_face:

We’re not talking about oxygen utilization with the very short-term, fast-twitch muscle stuff. We can run on ATP and then CP turned into ATP for a few seconds. Even a 100 meter sprint takes us beyond that, into anaerobic glycolysis. There is a slowdown over the last 20 - 40 meters as this takes effect.

This type of glycolysis can’t go on for very long, either - it builds up lactates fast, and this can be felt after the 100 meter race and certainly at 400 meters. The maximum possible average pace in the 400 is a little less than for the 100.

Then comes the aerobic stuff, using glucose/glycogen and later fat. Exercise long enough and regardless of who the individual is, fat will be almost all that’s being burned. For the given individual, I still question if burning fat can make for the same intensity of exercise, versus burning glycogen, because of oxygen being the limiting factor.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

The Equations

Oxidation of a carbohydrate molecule:

6 O2 + C6H12O6 → 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + 38 ATP
RER = VCO2/VO2 = 6 CO2/6 O2 = 1.0

Oxidation of a fatty acid molecule:

23 O2 + C16H32O2 → 16 CO2 + 16 H2O + 129 ATP
RER = VCO2/VO2 = 16 CO2/23 O2/ = 0.7

Source

(Doug) #20

Michael, that makes sense to me - a 13% advantage in ATP production for carbohydrates, there. I’ve read 15% in the past (would be explained by the average human fatty acid having a little more than 16 carbons).

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #21

This is very interesting. I’m still digesting, so may comment further.

(John Drewett) #22

Thank you CTViggen Bob , I know myself too well and part of the Targeted Ketogenic Diet for me at this point would be all about bringing my sugar girl back into my life . I’ve done this 20 gram thing pretty well thus far regarding compliance . Yesterday after arriving at this forum for one reason or another I went to the Carb Manager App that I ran across here as well and decided to only log Carbs , I happily availed of the 34 Net Carb allowance it dictated for me and went to the blood lab and still got a 2 value on the Keto lab that afternoon having consumed 29 net carbs . There seems something fair if not upstanding about life when I’m able to bring slices of bell pepper and onion and a 6 cherrie tomatoes to the leafy stuff and the avocado . I also learned at this forum if I wanted to amp up stuff then to go heavier with the fat so I’m feeling ok about things . The Peter Attia guy I’m a fan of ( actually his many guest ) Dom Agostino and the Ignio Millan , anyhow from one of them I was exposed to the idea of Non Insulin glucose uptake , there may be these receptors that reach down and actively suck up sugar immediately after or during excercise but I’ll wait and mess with that later. I committed to staying to the net 20 carb limit until Sept 24th which would make 3 months of following the rules , I’m not counting the time so much any more is the thing that pleases me most . Last thing I have stuck in my mind was that Peter Attia was eating something like 600 kcal of carbs a day when biking 100km / day each day for 3 days . I’ll stick to my 3 months and then give myself permission to explore . I’m really motivated by the idea of restoring mitochondria health and this is kind of fun. thank you for your feed back John ( today I’ll make pesto and will get around to learning to make my on mayo soon ) bye

(John Drewett) #23

I’m reluctant to post these links because it will allow one to listen for awhile and then requires a paid subscription , there are however many interviews that are shorter and require none "The Qualy’s , so their is a learning curve this particular one has to do with Mitochondrial health : https://peterattiamd.com/inigosanmillan/

(John Drewett) #24

This guy talks about fructose and a genetic mutation that occurred 17million years ago that allowed Great Apes to store fat and uric acid and so forth and more https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnson/

(John Drewett) #25

This guy who has been in Keto since 2008 will answer the question regarding intermittent Keto of doing 1 week on every 4 or 5 weeks using the metabolical flexibility and metabolic memory concepts , I’m not there and don’t know if I will ever be . I’m adamant on attempting to keep blood glucose , blood pressure fat percentage in perspective but I find him credible https://peterattiamd.com/domdagostinoama01/

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

Deranged lipid metabolism certainly contributes to the the problem. I remember Dr. Phinney’s saying at Ketofest 2019 that he was coming to the conclusion that chronic systemic inflammation is behind insulin resistance and diabetes.