Whoa! Dr. Phinney's take on protein...correct or incorrect?

(Todd Allen) #25

The raising of blood sugar from protein is demand driven. But the conversion of protein into carbohydrate is also supply driven.

We catabolize excess protein. How that happens depends on the specific amino acids. Several, for example glycine, are broken down into pyruvate. If ATP is low pyruvate from amino acids is oxidized exactly the same as pyruvate from glucose. If ATP is high pyruvate is converted to glucose.

There are other gluconeogenic (glucose precursors) breakdown products of amino acids such as α-ketoglutarate, succinyl-CoA, fumarate, and oxaloacetate. There are also a couple ketogenic breakdown products acetyl-CoA and acetoacetate and the net effect of consuming protein is roughly half as anti-ketogenic as consuming carbs.

(Doug) #26

Good explanation, Todd - thank you. I would guess that the speed of lipid synthesis from the additional glucose (created, as you say, by protein degradation when ATP levels are high) weighs on the blood glucose number - it may be an individual thing, and also related to the amount of insulin in response to eating the protein, an amount said to be considerably higher in Type 2 diabetics.

If we necessarily end up with glucose from breaking protein down, then it matters how fast the body clears that glucose - we do see some apparent wide variation among individuals.

(Todd Allen) #27

Another thing to consider is eating protein raises insulin which drives amino acids into muscle. If the muscle has been used hard a lot of amino acids can be used for repair and growth. Even with minimal use surplus amino acids stimulate a little growth and can help sustain higher muscle mass. But the excess not used for growth get catabolized for energy. Glucose produced in the muscle can’t get released into the blood as muscle lacks the enzyme glucose-6-phosphatase needed for glucose export.

(Dan Dan) #28

Wow a lot of sciencey stuff…

Let’s see if I under stand you all…

Eat a low carbohydrate, moderate protein, high fat diet in a time restricted eating window for optimal health YMMV :face_with_monocle::thinking::wink:

#29

edit

(CharleyD) #30

Actually, if you’re keto and IF, you don’t have the usual sugar burner’s liver glycogen stores. (and you know the muscle glycogen can’t be exported) There’s always a trickle of glucose being made from FFA beta oxidation from the glycerol backbone of the triglyceride, but I’d think our demand would be higher and the glycemic amino acids in the labile pool would look tempting after a while, especially if you regularly work-out.

(Running from stupidity) #31

+1

(Bunny) #32

Thought I would mention why some people who eat meat and fat very frequently on the LCHF (ketogenic) diet and lose weight (burn fat) like it’s nothing (no problems?) and I think the reason for this is, is our individual metabolic ability to oxidize glucose in contrast to perhaps age (not sold on that concept at the moment)?

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1FA66ACA-1DAC-435C-8A93-BE3E5FDD6912.jpeg926×1151 108 KB

Figure 6. (above) ”… Metabolites that changed between young and old are indicated in bold; representative metabolites data from the muscle and liver are shown in the left and right margin respectively. …” …More

(CharleyD) #33

Well that sucks for old mice. :smile_cat:

Can we get him to do the study in insulin resistant and sensitive people, both carb burners and fat adapted, young and old, athletes and couch potatoes?

#34

Actually, I have seen a couple of his talks where he discusses this, in detail, with an excellent understanding, so I think you are assuming that he is ignorant. Where in fact he is actually very knowledgeable and experienced, having studied this subject for decades, in the lab and with patients and athletes.

I’m thinking of one video in particular where he is talking about how unimportant ketone numbers are, and how pointless it is trying to score higher ketone readings, since ketosis is ketosis and the reading is no measure at all of how efficient your body is at actually using ketones. Sorry, don’t have the vid link handy. It is the one where he reminisces about formulating a keto diet for the record breaking rowing team. :slight_smile:

(Adam Kirby) #35

This is all true but Phinney still talks about protein raising insulin, aka being problematic. Which is only half of the situation, since it also raises glucagon, which is something carbs don’t do. I have not heard him speak on the whole insulin/glucagon ratio thing, which admittedly is pretty novel to most people following the keto diet and has been brought to more peoples’ attention by Ben Bikman.

Phinney’s a smart dude that I still don’t think gets the protein question completely right.

(Bunny) #36

Besides mice! You know what is really interesting, is Japan, they have a long list (or longest list in the world?) of centenarians but one thing that really sticks out is portion size of food not just the quality of food and the soil quality is probably better their than any other place in the world right now, that may explain the longevity and of course you have the Japanese potato full of organic hyaluronic acid (also in bone broth) or the molecular glue (no leaky gut) of the body and green tea etc.

But that portion size thing really sticks out in contrast to centenarians (with no health problems); when I look at serving or portion sizes per-meal, per-culture (looks similar to keto?), just one of those things that make you go hmm?

Then you see vegans of the Seventh Day Adventist sect with quite a few centenarians and I am thinking if all your eating is veggies, your not going to be eating a lot of it because it would get boring after sometime?

(CharleyD) #37

As long as you’re operating on a caloric deficit, and keep sugar and starch low, you’ll engage those longevity genes. Who’s to say how long you can subsist?

I just object, as an American, to having the SDA dictate through their policy making puppets nutritional morality.

#38

I see where you are going with the portion size thing, but if I look at the way my parents’ eating has changed over the years (they are now both in their 80s) their portion sizes have drifted downwards for around 20 years. More likely linked to age, activity levels and appetite, rather than a lifelong policy of small portions.

They have always eaten nutritiously, with good quality non-processed foods, and I am glad to say that they are still doing so, whereas many of their contemporaries don’t bother to cook any more and eat easy processed foods, and replace meals with toast or tea and biscuits - which eventually causes malnutrition.

(Bunny) #39

I didn’t know there was any actual research on what I was thinking about but lo & behold there is…lol

Some research on the subject:

  1. ”…It turns out that calorie control not only works in the Battle of the Bulge, but also can help to extend your life. As a matter of fact, in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition , Dr. G.S. Roth and colleagues at the National Institute on Ageing in Baltimore make it absolutely clear. “Dietary energy restriction is the only proven method for extending the lifespan and slowing aging in mammals, while maintaining health and vitality.” The equation - less food equals a longer healthier life - has been known for over 60 years now (in mice), although researchers have just begun translating these findings to primates like us. …” - Dr. Will Clower
  1. PERMANENTLY cutting the daily calories you consume may turn out to have a profound effect on your future life, according to some tantalising scientific studies. …More
  1. Portion Size, Then and Now - World Health Organization
  1. The Secret to Queen Elizabeth’s Longevity “… Queen Elizabeth sticks to small portion sizes, preferring four light meals instead of three larger ones …”’
  1. “… For the Japanese, hara hachi bunme or hara hachi bu, eating until they’re 80 percent full, is a traditional dietary control that achieves good health and longevity …” …More
  1. Living to 100: Sardinia’s secret to longevity: In “The Blue Zones Solutions,” author Dan Buettner writes about the Italian island of Sardinia, where people frequently lead unusually long and healthy lives. NBC senior investigative correspondent Cynthia McFadden reports.
(Matthew) #40

I’m just listening to Peter Attia talking about this now. According to him, broadly speaking… general daily calory reduction can reduce the risk of cancers and cardiovascular disease, but into old age the loss of muscle mass which is associated with low caloric levels could be attributable for other older generation mortality causes such as falling and motor-neuron diseases.

(Bunny) #41

Hmmmmmm? Caloric Restricted Ketosis (counting calories, macros, CICO etc.) vs. Carbohydrate Restricted Ketosis (nutritional ketosis)?

CALORIES (units of energy) UNIT OF ENERGY TABLE (per gram):

• CARBOHYDRATE = 4 units

• FAT = 9 units

• PROTEIN = 4 units

METHODOLOGY PARADIGM:

• Carb cycling

• Protein Cycling

• Intermittent Fasting IF

• Extended Fasting EF

• Cyclic Ketogenic Diet

• Feast & Fast

• LCHF

• 0 Carb (carnivore; high protein)

Interesting:

  1. Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass Conclusion: Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein.
  1. Diet/Foods to Increase BDNF:
  • Ketogenic Diet (R)
  • Stay away from the SAD diet – stay away from a high sugar and high saturated fat diet i.e. SAD diet…(R)
  • Fish oil/DHA (R, R2),
  • Hi-maize/Resistant starch – converts to butyrate, which causes an increase in BDNF (R)
  • Honey: FOS, GOS (Prebiotics)(R)…
  • Blueberries (R),
  • Cocoa (flavonoids) (R),
  • Soy – Both estradiol and soy phytoestrogens significantly increased BDNF in the frontal cortex of female rats. (R)
  • High salt intake (R) …More
  1. Role of brain-derived neurotrophic factor in wobbler mouse motor neuron disease.
  1. BDNF prevents and reverses adult rat motor neuron degeneration and induces axonal outgrowth.
  1. The Ketogenic Diet: Calorie Confusions & Details When Doing Keto and Intermittent Fasting
  1. Why Low Calories Does Not Equal Weight Loss
  1. Counting Calories is Stupid! - Dr. Ken Berry
(CharleyD) #43

If you have good satiety signals, you’ll be able to do both, both calorie restricted ketosis and actual carb restricted ketosis. It depends on how long fat adapted, I’d wager.

(brant kinnsch) #44

Ben Bickman truly knows his stuff.

#45

Just like what I learned from studying boat hull shapes, everything’s a compromise. You want to be MODERATE in all things. A fast boat is very uncomfortable but a comfortable boat is slower overall. I think if we stay in a low level of ketosis (not always trying to see how high we push the numbers up) and maintain a body fat around 8-10% we are in as moderately safe a position as we can be in. I think Peter Attia is also one of the ones that says it’s good to exercise - just not too much.