When Fruits and Vegetables are not good for Health
Didn’t watch the video, but here’s my take …
Fruits and vegetables naturally arrive on plants in the autumn. Eating them when in genuine season in order to “fatten up” for the winter (when food sources tend to be scarce) seems perfectly healthy and natural for an omnivore.
The problem with our modern agriculture and distribution system is they are made unnaturally available in the grocery produce section 365 days a year - which is too much ongoing fructose intake for a healthy body to withstand. Metabolic problems become inevitable over months, years, decades of such indulgence.
Perhaps that’s what the video says - haven’t time/patience to watch.
This. I do eat a small amount of fruit every day like berries - even when doing keto. However, a large amount of fructose from a fructarian diet is going to lead to lots of uric acid, and fat production. This was a survival advantage for man in hunter and gatherer days as it helped winter survival, but in modern times is quite unhealthy on a continual basis.
I think the ingestion of fructose is also a trigger - it’s a message to the body that fatten-up season has arrived, winter is coming, and we should Eat eat eat. Fructose doesn’t seem to signal satiety, if anything the reverse.
I never experienced this. They are around all year long except no fruit in spring and no vegs in winter (and of course, there is time where there is only little). Though probably something exists even then, depends on what one considers vegetable… Mushrooms are all year round, theoretically but I almost never find any in spring and early summer.
Of course it depends on the climate. I live in Hungary, I find fruit between June/July and March, depends on the winter. My own garden (I know it’s not natural but there is some correlation) has fruit since early June (rarely late May) to December. Because I cut out all the rosehip I find, I have too many plants with thorns everywhere, the rosehip grows in the thorny blackberry, impossible to reach the base.
The amount of wild fruits and greens, well that’s negligible here. There are many wild fruits but they aren’t much and mostly aren’t nutritious. I can’t imagine anyone our size getting much from it though if I was desperate, I probably could collect a tad more, still not very useful. Nuts are better as they actually have some calories… Some fruits don’t even have sugar based on their complete lack of sweetness! 
So I don’t get all the foraging stories… I would think I spend more energy to find that few sour berries and I don’t like eating nettle, thank you very much.
My body isn’t seasonal and of course, I don’t need any fattening, in the contrary. I desire the same fatty, protein rich food all year long. Of course, I am pretty far from being a wild animal living in Nature.
That’s right. And the fruits are unnaturally sweet quite often. I LOVE fruits, it never will change but I borderline can’t eat many of them. (It works as I just use tiny amounts in that case, something my body prefers anyway.) I often wish for a lovely fruit with a very low sugar content but that’s not how it works. I have not overly sweet fruits too, that’s nice but I want all my quite many favs and more.
Low-carb worked for me, I automatically desired less and less sugar and my body was there to nudge me if I forgot myself… I never need to keep myself from eating sugar, I get all I want and more but I don’t even want any, I mostly want the other parts of the fruit but it’s a full package, oh well. I can eat almost any fruits in tiny quantities and if not, I banned them anyway, I still could keep my first few dozen favs. I wish fruits would be healthy (well they aren’t particularly unhealthy for me in the tiny amounts I think), it’s so unfair kids are pressed to eat all the super palatable fruits and vegs they dislike while I try to forget about them… They are blissful. Especially the fruits, carnivore pretty much turned off my desire and mostly my ability to eat vegs. But I still like some in moderation, here and there. Like a pickle with my rich meat, that can be nice.
Mmmm. Of course I got carried away again but I am in love with fruits and I don’t expect this to change. It isn’t a miracle I can do full carnivore weeks when very motivated as I don’t need or miss them in such a short time (if motivated and they aren’t in season. but as I wrote, there is almost always a fruit season… some are less dangerous than others though. sadly, I love tropical fruits and they are in season now when all the autumn ones finished) but they are still nice to have and I am always surrounded with all kinds of fruit…
It definitely is for me. Some people get satiated by fruit well enough but I always am baffled when people eat an apple in novels or something and they consider it a meal. If I touch most fruit when I am well-satiated and would stay so for quite a few hours more, I get huge, irresistible hunger. Sugars are the most hunger inducing things in my life and carbs in general are pretty “good” at that to begin with. Sugar can make me quite hungry again after I ate a pretty big, very satiating carnivore meal. Sugars are somewhat unnatural to me due to this, good riddance. I never missed sugar when I went lower except when I tried out keto almost out of high-carb, that didn’t work but maybe it would have been a different story with meat? Vegetarian keto was easy enough for me but I see that all the plant sugars interfered with my satiation and I know now that meat is more satiating for me than eggs and (even sugar free) dairy.
Even if fructose doesn’t make one hungry, fructose rich items are often tempting enough that we keep eating them even when we aren’t hungry anymore. I don’t really have this problem anymore but sometimes I still find a fruit that I would like to eat much of. I don’t do it, usually as my body and mind both tells me it wouldn’t a great idea and I banned the triggering ones anyway. Interestingly, I don’t like the most triggering ones much. Being highly enjoyable and being triggering so easy to eat galore are two different things, at least for me.
But it is quite individual. The average person probably don’t get particularly satiated by sugar, though. Protein is the best of it, it’s known (and we probably need some fat too for energy if we can’t get satiated by a tiny meal) but it’s not so simple. My family members know from experience that fruit alone triggers big hunger so it’s only eaten during a meal (I can eat 2 rosehips without this effect during a walk though and I trust I even use up the sugar during my activity).
We are individuals and should figure out what works for us and eat accordingly. Some knowledge about nutrition and health would be nice too but we can’t expect much from the average person. But even they can see if something makes them hungry or unwell and even the quides have something right… People just don’t seem to care about their health and well-being. Strange. It’s super important for me (and I should more for it… I am trying).
I only eat a few apples off my tree once a year and that’s about it for me for fruit. I never was a big fan of fruit before keto, so easy for me to give up.
I still eat non-carby veggies and a few of my home-grown potatoes and peas in the summer.
But not a huge amount of veggies, compared to the meat and cheese I eat.
My guess is that you are correct. This is especially true since the fruit season is short in many locations, such as where I live. (I should say: used to be much shorter; now it’s longer because it’s a lot warmer; we’re going to set a record high today.)
This study does indicate, however, that eating fruit before a meal will lower calories eaten:
I can’t wrap my hear around this one. The “meal” was high carb, low protein - “The test meal consisted of cheese tortellini (612 g; Ralzoni and Bros., Dover, NJ, USA) and tomato sauce (280 g; Traditional Prego, Campbell Soup Co., Camden, NJ, USA), and was accompanied by a liter of drinking water served at 2 °C. The test meal contained 64% of energy from carbohydrate, 16% energy from fat, and 20% of energy from protein, and had an energy density of 2.2 kcal/g [9.2 kJ/g]”. Prego is a poor quality red sauce that’s also relatively sweet.
Not sure why apples would cause lower calories to be eaten.
Maybe just the bulk? Say an apple weighs 100g (That might be low for an apple). It would be interesting to see if 100 g of any other plant does the same thing, say 100 g of arugula or 100 g of brussels sprouts.
I’m going to add that the article tested various forms of the fruit, i.e. whole apple versus applesauce. It takes a lot longer and requires more chewing to eat an apple than it does to slurp down applesauce. I bet that also has something to do with it.
I just know that if I ate the cheese tortellini with sweet red sauce, I could eat a ton of it. I’d have pretty much no off switch. I can feel the pounds packing on just thinking about it. 
I do think timing could be an issue. Maybe you begin to figure out you’re not as hungry when you have to eat an entire apple (in slices, I think). My mom was quite thin and one thing she did was eat really slowly.
I’ve lost the article atm but I recently read a peice about how much vegetables have changed. A carrot for example was a simple, brown spindly plant root that was so bitter it was inedible. You might say it still is lol
With the advent of agriculture man has definitely evolved several vegetables. Kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts, broccoli and cauliflower are all “cruciferous” vegetables, which have all come down to us through at least 10 millennia of “natural” selection by man from a spindly plant called wild broccoli. Lettuces were similarly selected from a rather undesirable plant called prickly lettuce. Wild carrot is a similarly undesirable bitter root with a yucky sap. We have been breeding out most of the undesirable characteristics, but I now limit my carrot and potato intake as they are not only starchy but rather high in oxalates. I am about to start my fall keto round, and won’t be eating any of these starchy root vegetables.
Simple, they wouldn’t, for me and many others. Maybe they help when one is a volume eater or the odd one who gets satiated by apples?
I skimmed the article, it was even a quite small volume (I start to call it substantial when it’s 1000g… and it’s still wouldn’t help me) but maybe it still matters to some…?
a standard breakfast of bagels and yogurt was consumed ad libitum in order to ensure a consistent level of hunger before lunch sessions
Oh my. I don’t even understand this. But sounds bad to me. Okay, the study is for “normal” people, not me… My SO could get satiated with this for a very long time. The other meal is quite horrible for me too. Borderline or truly impossible to reach satiation. I think. It’s not like I ever was able to eat that extremely low-fat (I did one day once but that was it).
So it’s probably for mostly carb eaters (HCLF) who get very well satiated by mostly carbs…? Strange group. But I heard from people that they only can get satiated if they eat a lot of fruit so almost anything is possible when it’s about satiation…
It was 216g or something in the study. Still just one apple, very little volume. I easily ate 1000g apple in one sitting when I was younger (I probably never could eat that much as applesauce or apple juice, I just ate raw apples with skin and everything as it’s proper and most enjoyable for me). It made a nice appetizer before lunch… And helped with hydration and satisfaction. Apple is joy and hydration for my SO too. Definitely not “food” and doesn’t seem to help with lowering the amount eaten.
You probably have a point there, of course the individual factor must be there too. I would eat a lot slowly too and apples still would boost my energy intake. Eating slower helps in a way that we don’t overeat just because the right amount of food needs some time before satiation arrives… It’s often delayed. If one can’t eat slowly, a little break may help.
Apples still would mess things up for me but we should figure out these things for ourselves.
Oh my, what a big change from this sweet lovely thing we have now! Not like I eat carrots nowadays but I have plenty of very fond memories of it. I used it regularly on my original keto, it was basic in veggie soup, the only veggie dish I could fit into my tiny, 40g net carb allowance… Vegs are just too carby for me eating them in big amounts. But carrot is very tasty and sweet and rich so a little goes a long way! And a good soup is mostly water if you ask me (with exceptions). My SO uses like 3-4kg vegs in his soups, they aren’t even really liquid anymore, I always missed the water from those… But each to their own, I always say.
I really don’t understand the hype around apples. Though they (the pretty common good ones) are extremely delicious I admit. Crunchy, juicy, refreshing, satisfying. But otherwise? Nutrition: not really what most of us need, more like the opposite, a bunch of sugar. Satiation: the worst thing ever for many of us and it makes sense as it’s mostly sugar…
My guess is bulk plus … tenacity? Solidity? Not sure what to call it, but I believe uncooked apple with skin, even if quickly chewed, would take much more mechanical energy to break down in the stomach than, say, iceberg lettuce (or pasta). So your stomach has actual filler in it, and it has a job to do - that it might still be doing post-pasta. That might tend to reduce the desire for more.
All fruits and vegetables have been genetically modified by man. Nothing or very little that we have available today comes close to resembling what our ancestors ate.
I believe that if we could actually eat what God originally made we might find that it doesn’t harm us like the man made foods do now.
We would also find them horrible to eat, and go find an animal to kill. Back then there were some edible plants, but they tasted bad and were hard to eat. It was what they ate if they were starving. If they had an option, they ate meat.
Just what I had in mind. Though I wonder what it was that made us persevere with these unpleasant plants … The sweet fruit berries and honey are more understandable but of course they were seldom eaten.
So it’s for volume eaters. With a small stomach and their bodies not caring so much about actual nutrients…? (The whole test meal requires the latter, it was too carby…) I function in very different ways and that is more logical to me. If most people would be just volume eaters and that would matter a lot for satiation, people could comfortably slim down eating mostly low energy dense food along with the bare minimal others for nutrition.
I think the filler thing easily may have an important factor but there are other things. Apple adds eating time, satisfaction and more. They are important too for many of us. And maybe after a modern, super sweet apple, one doesn’t want so much from the food in sweet sauce…? I surely would eat little of it despite my progressively growing hunger (though super low, negative desire for my only available food can even suppress my hunger)… There was the question about “how full you are” but I am sure I would feel rather full than eating the stuff, body and mind can have these tricks… I don’t like the question, by the way, I don’t even use the word fullness often. I am stomach-full if I just consumed 2kg. I may feel full when it’s completely empty. I would consider it satiation I think. But they talk about fullness so maybe I should consider how much more I could eat…? I think when people are asked instead of measuring something (not like the latter is always very much reliable), that makes the study much weaker. I understand it is supposed to be a good way to figure out if people had enough, I would use my such feelings to figure out things too (and my energy intake for the full day) but it’s more complex than that.
Was there something about hunger later in the day? That’s extremely important for me as it strongly effects my total energy intake and even my well-being. I hate getting hungry way too soon again. Short and long term satiation are quite different, I experienced it many times.
It would be interesting to see what would have happened with different test meals. Or different preloads, like 200g leanish red meat instead of apple. It makes sense to me to eat something that is useful (I mean nutritionally) and satiating for most people.
That was my thought too… 
We would eat meat (including fish, bugs… so, animal bodies), occasionally eggs and honey, they are good. Most of the wild berries I find aren’t good and I am not for greens though I would eat some in need I suppose? (The sour ones are midly nice and I doubt they changed much. Only sorrel got “noble”, the others stayed weeds and similar ignored things) But they hardly could give me a significant amount of nutrients.
But I still am unable to understand how anyone could look at a hard, inedible little seed and think they should work a lot for months to make more Grains look inedible enough now… But I never was as desperate and innovative as my ancient anchestors…
I probably would be digging up eathworms and whatnots before eating most ancient plants… As I can’t imagine myself being any good at hunting but I surely would try that too. But when it’s unsuccessful, some earthworms would be a nice plan B.
Desperation during lean times. Survival food when there’s no real food and our bodies become tolerant over a period of time.