What’s a reasonable amount of calories

(Consensus is Politics) #21

I have unsuccessfully tried to explain excess valories in the past. So I would point you to the 2ketoDudes podcast that covers this very topic.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

This is the “protein leverage hypothesis,” which Ted Naiman is—or perhaps was; I hear he might have moved on—promoting. In essence, the hypothesis, advanced by Raubenheimer and Simpson, posits that mammals have an instinct to eat in a way that provides a certain amount of protein in the diet. Rats, dogs, and other species exhibit this behaviour, and it is likely that human beings do, as well.

In our case, we tend to seek out an amount of protein that is roughly 15% of a high-quality diet, but we will overeat calories in order to obtain enough protein. Similarly, if the diet we eat is protein-rich, we will undereat calories when our need for protein is satisfied. That chart you saw in the link was presented by Naiman in a lecture of his that I saw recently.

I’m not entirely sure about this hypothesis. It is plausible, even intriguing, but I think I want to see more data before I embrace it.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #23

I’ll try to check it out. Thanks.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #24

Here’s a screenshot of what I ate.
It puts me at “fat gain”

Screenshot_20190318-202840
Screenshot_20190318-202840.jpg1080×1920 350 KB

#25

If you stick below 20g carbs and eat to satiety you’ll most likely eat the right amount. Your body knows the amount.

On a carb diet this gets mangled up (bit of a hint something is wrong) and we lose faith in our own ability to eat the right amount. We start counting calories, plan on serious gym time, try to out run a bad diet, avoid this and that but it all fails.

Thanks to keto we can get insulin under control, satiety works again. We stop storing fat all the time.

The numbers take care of themselves (and yes there is a deficit but most people don’t care about that). And 1300-1500 ish sounds right-ish.

(BTW the highest priority is for your body to obtain the necessary amount of protein, it’ll keep driving you to eat until you get that amount. As per Dr Ted Naiman)

Meantime ensure you have no hidden carbs and stay near 20g.

Cheers

(Jeff Gilbertson) #26

At the bottom of that page, there are two “buttons” that link to more information.

(Natasha) #27

This is a really great way to put it!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #28

So the question becomes, are you gaining fat?

(DougH) #29

Are you doing heavy compound lifts? Squat, deadlift, bench press, standing press, rows?

If you want to gain a few pounds you should prioritize giving the right signals for lean muscle mass growth. Unless you are looking to add body fat, but given that you are doing OMAD I seriously doubt that would be your objective.

You need a calorie surplus, time to start figuring that out.
You need to do heavy (for you) compound lifts.
You need large protein bolas with each meal, some researchers think 50g minimum a meal to trigger the leucine threshold which signals the body to be anabolic for muscle growth.

I would probably consider going to two meals a day instead of OMAD. It gives you more opportunity to hit the anabolic thresholds with protein and start muscle growth.

Here is a podcast you might find interesting about protein consumption:
Muscle Growth Science, mTOR & Leucine w/ Gabrielle Lyon, DO …

(Jeff Gilbertson) #30

This is a good podcast, also.

(Consensus is Politics) #31

But in all of this, insulin elevation matters. The amount of times tou eat a day matter. Eating three meals a day might be a problem. Eating five meals a day will most likely be a problem.

Keeping your food intake window for the entire day as short as possible is key here. When Insulin gets elevated, your fat cells are in storage mode. Insulin can be triggered by several things. Eating, even fat, if eaten enough of it, can trigger a larger than notmal amount of insulin for fat. Essentially eating enough to make your stomach stretch a bit, will cause insulin to rise, adding to the rise in insulin already released for fat (albeit, a very small amount for the fat). Of course glucose causes a massive release of insulin. Protein causes a modest rise of insulin. Other factors, like stress, causes cortisol to be released, which triggers glucose, which triggers insulin (no food intake required at all). Then there is the Pavlovian response to most sweeteners. Causing a insulin reponse to taste. Some people more effected than others. Then there are the “safe for diabetics” products that get that name because they have no sugar. Sugar free Metamucil gave me high BG levels for several weeks before I figured it out. Maltodextrin was a confounder. Turns out maltodextrin (used as an anticaking agent, in almost everything that needs anticaking) has a higher glycemic index than table sugar. That means it turns into blood glucose faster than sugar does. If memory serves me right, it was the first ingredient in the list on that package of “safe for diabetics”. No wonder my BG was so fracked. So examine those labels. Look up what those items are. When in doubt, test it. Remove it for a while and see what happens.

Something I keep reading is “lots of veggies”. I have heard (back in the 90’s, when I was trying to be fit. Fitness gurus in the Air Force, and the Base hospital, encouraged a high intake of veggies. Any, and as much as you could eat. The more the better. No cap, as in no matter what, it was impossible to eat too much of them.) This is a recipe for disaster. Health guidlines didnt actually say that, but you could read between the lines, fat is bad, eat non fat. Avoid fats. Fat causes diabetes, heart disease, et. al. So not having actual science behind the recommendations, simply means its their opinion. Its a consensus. First rule about consensus is its [spoiler]bullshit[/spoiler]. Consensus is not science. Science is NEVER settled. Scientific ‘facts’ change after time. Usually because of variables that were never known at the time. Or scientific studies that were faked. But no one dared opposing it, because of ‘consensus’ was reached.

Sorry, didnt mean to go down that rabbit hole. But there it is.

Keto Vitae!

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #32

Not sure about that.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #33

Drat! I was hoping for a clearcut answer. Oh, well! :grin::grin:

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #34

No, not doing much exercise at all. I’m not really interested (or have the time) to do weights, etc.
The best I’d manage is stuff at home on a Wii Fit.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #35

I don’t have a good way to tell. I didn’t have any DEXA scans done before. I’m considering trying to get a body comp DEXA, as opposed to just bone density.

(DougH) #36

To each their own, but that would be the best way to add weight in a beneficial form, lean muscle mass. There is benefits to metabolic flexibility, muscles are glucose sinks. Plus there is the whole staving off sarcopenia later in life.

To re-ask why are you trying to gain some weight, and what would your goals be for that weight gain?

#37

There’s an older 2 Keto Dudes episode about metabolic rates that I listened to just recently. They discuss some interesting things about how much you’re eating can effect your RMR. If you’re eating a lot, your RMR can increase and you burn more. I listened to all this in the context of wanting to lose weight, but they talk about some studies on athletes and others who didn’t need to lose and they were burning through thousands of calories/day.

@KetoCancerMom if you’re trying to gain and not having much luck, you probably want to do the opposite of what is usually recommended for people trying to lose weight. I’d start by eating more often; getting a steady trickle of insulin going will pack on the pounds. You could check out what the body builders, Keto Gains, etc. are doing, but keep in mind that their advice is useful for people trying to build muscle and working out with heavy lifts a couple of times a week. It doesn’t sound like this is your goal.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #38

I have cancer, so I’m trying to limit both my glucose and insulin levels while trying to not lose too much weight. @Freefall_Doug, I wouldn’t mind putting on some muscle. I’m just not ready to spend money on a good gym membership. By that, I mean a gym that has childcare for kids under age 3 and under age 1. I could probably figure out something inexpensive to do at home, though. I might also do some strength training and incorporate things like the plank.

(DougH) #39

Understood, I apologize for prying but that really helps with understanding where you were coming from. I think if I was in a similar situation I would also have the primary focus of limiting BG and insulin if my cancer was shown to be glucose dependent.

My earlier recommendations aren’t even close to the mark given your specific goals. I do think body weight exercises like planks would be great, you can also get some exercise bands and do band work you would be surprised how creative you can get with those.

Do any of the dexa scan places by you do RMR testing? That would give you a lot of knowledge to plan your calorie consumption around.

Good luck and kick cancers ass!

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #40

I’ve been doing a good job of kicking its ass so far! I’ll look into that, I think they probably do, and I’m thinking of seeing if my doctor will order me a full DEXA scan (I have one already scheduled for bone density). I started “full-force” keto because of the cancer, but had been eating lazy keto, with some carbs, because my husband was eating keto (and its much easier to cook one meal for a family).