What if "Eating to Satiety" ain't enough to reach prudent caloric targets?

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #11

Do you recall the thread title? I use the search function but it isn’t always as helpful as I’d like.
Thanks!

#12

No, unfortunately… it was within the last few months, I think. Maybe someone else will remember?

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #13

Gotcha. Heh, threads sometimes (often) change direction here and wonderful information can be buried. That’s why I asked. :blush: Thanks for replying!

(Joey) #14

@coffeekittie Hi there… I just used the forum search bar with the single word “satiety” and found a wealth of interesting and informative threads. I probably should have done this BEFORE I started this new thread! Happy hunting.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #15

Excellent. I was just sitting here noodling on search terms. :thinking:

#16

Are you thinking of this one?
Why would my metabolism slow down if I’m getting cals from fat stores?

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #17

I don’t know which thread @Madeleine was referring to. I did read the one you linked. Thank you! I might have to write out my particular circumstance on my accountability thread and see if I get responses there.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

Phinney and Volek found that the typical ketonian who is shedding excess stored fat typically eats about 1000 (kilo)calories less than total energy expenditure when eating to satiety. If your daily caloric need is 2500 calories, your appetite is likely to max out around 1500, the remaining 1000 calories being drawn from adipose stores. Note that as you run out of excess fat to shed, your appetite will gradually rise as you continue eating to satiety, until there is no more excess stored fat to contribute to your daily expenditure, and therefore all 2500 calories have to come from the food you eat. This is perfectly normal when eating to satiety, and I feel for myself that it’s what makes keto feasible for me—I loathe having to count calories and calculate macros. Letting my body do the arithmetic is ideal for me.

(Joey) #19

This sounds like an accurate description of what I am now experiencing … At 5’9" and falling below 150 lbs, perhaps I’ll get there soon enough when I run out of krispy kremes (just kidding - these were never my weakness)

… and this sounds like the state at which I hope to arrive.

Meanwhile, I’ve been convinced by these many helpful replies to just trust my “satiety” - even if it hasn’t always served me well during decades on a HC/LF diet. Will report back as things unfold.

#20

Yes, please! This is a really interesting question and it will be helpful for many folks on here to see how things unfold for you.

#21

Yes, that’s the one I meant! Thanks, @carolT

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

The reason satiety is not a safe guide on a high-carb diet is that elevated insulin blocks the receptors in the hypothalamus that are supposed to register the leptin that the fat tissue secreted to signal the brain that we have enough energy on board to stop eating for a while. So the brain never receives the signal, and thus it allows the stomach to continue secreting ghrelin—the hormon that tells us to eat. This is the reason I could eat pasta until my stomach was literally near the bursting point, and still be hungry for more.

Fortunately, once insulin drops, the hypothalamus can sense all that leptin again, and things work the way they are supposed to.

(Joey) #23

Thanks @PaulL for this interesting additional tidbit.

FWIW, my recent NMR lipid analysis puts my LP-IR (insulin resistance score) at “<25” … where the reference scale shows <27 as the lowest point on the sensitivity/resistance spectrum.

In others words, I’ve got no discernible IR , and apparently am highly insulin sensitive. This might suggest I can “trust” my hunger signals more than I’m giving them credit for.

Okay, so I just skipped today’s planned lunch (first meal of the day) and just went with a hot cup of bouillon + 2 teaspoons of congealed chicken fat I’d saved from our rotisserie chicken drippings a few days back. Delicious! But enough, I’m full :slight_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

You sound as though you are doing just fine. KCKO! (Keep Calm and Keto On!)

(Trish) #25

Yup. There are many days I eat only 800 calories (other days 1400) but either way I’m full and not in danger of eating anyone’s small child or pet. I actually marvel how full I can feel at times on a small volume of food.

(Heather Meyer) #26

I have this experience often. My calorie count seems to fluctuate between 600-900 cals per day without feeling hungry at all… But… there are definitly a few days in the month where my body wants much more… like 1100. So i trust my gut :yum:

#27

The eat till satiation thing is built upon the fat, meaning the High Fat, low carb diet is designed to help your body reset back to a Paleolithic model of eating and healing.

It’s all about the fats healing and getting your body used to burning fat in your liver and stored in and around your body. If your feeling like your losing weight too fast, up the fats.

Fatty meats such as rib eye, chuck eye, bacon, pork products, sausages, pork belly, 80/20% or 73/27% ground beef, and bone marrow all have the percentages of fat harkening back to ancient man diets, fat is extremely healing and resetting of immune systems. We have been trained since the ‘80’s to eschew fats and have vilified them. They are a powerful ingredient to the Keto way of eating, especially feeling satiated.

Up your fatty meat content, it will help you condition and move your metabolism toward higher calories and not diminish your metabolism like restricting calories does.

(Joey) #28

@SunnyD Not entirely sure how the paleolithic eating habits played out but if those high saturated animal fat meat/organs were only available sporadically (like after a successful hunt), my guess is that the eating lasted well beyond satiety.

It probably lasted as long as the food lasted. Beyond satiety, you’d probably stuff yourself - not knowing when you might nab your next fistful of heart and lungs.

Just using my imagination here. :man_shrugging:

#29

I guess that’s where intermittent fasting comes into play. The consequences of lowering your caloric intake long term is decreasing your metabolic rate too, upping the fats have proven to balance this out. Are you still losing weight too fast? Have you read Dr Jason Fung’s book, “The Obesity Code”, or read his research on these websites:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/
https://thefastingmethod.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Obesity-Code-Unlocking-Secrets-Weight/dp/1771641258/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Obesity+code&qid=1574120312&s=books&sr=1-1
https://www.dietdoctor.com/podcast

(Joey) #30

@SunnyD I think you’re quite right that intermittent fasting is an eating pattern that was originally forced upon humans (and most other animals) by the intermittent timing of food’s arrival.

[We’ve since messed with this natural flow through our highly scheduled day-long grazing habits.]

In response: I continue to eat 1.5 meals per day in an 18/6 window and I have indeed digested much of Fung’s work (though never to full satiety :wink: .

As for my weight: it seems to have stabilized to within 139-141 lbs in recent weeks; waist is a constant 31 inches. Lunches are my first meal, 1 or 2pm at around 300-400 kcal. And after dinner, I usually feel “stuffed” to get my whole day’s caloric load up to around 2000 kcal (+/- 10%).

Whether I’m eating more than would be sufficient to feel sated is something I’m still not quite sure I trust to my body’s signals - as I’m still not a very good listener. Don’t want to under-nourish myself, though.

@Madeleine [Reporting back as requested. See this thread entry just above] :writing_hand: