What if "Eating to Satiety" ain't enough to reach prudent caloric targets?

(Joey) #1

I’ve got a question that perhaps some old-timers here might tackle…

Now in my 5th week of keto and everything is going G-R-E-A-T. But this “eat until satiated” advice is throwing me for a loop.

It turns out that I don’t seem to feel the need to eat anywhere near as many kcals/day as what all those caloric intake models suggest I should be eating for reasonable maintenance (i.e., 1800 to 2000 kcal or more).

Instead, I feel perfectly satisfied with a light lunch and primary meal (dinner) that total around 1400 kcal/day - sometimes less. But every reference source I find (including keto-friendly calculators) describe my “comfort level” of intake as representing a significant - even severe - caloric restriction. Huh? Really?

FYI, I’m at 62 yr old male around 5’9" and just lost 13 lbs this first month on keto (not really even my objective). My weight now hovers just below 150lbs, down from over 160lb and I’ve lost 3" at the waist.

I’m a little concerned that if I continue to eat only as much as I feel the urge to eat, I will begin robbing my metabolism of what it needs, and that my metabolic rate (and energy level) will begin to decline.

Meanwhile, trying to keep the fat + protein anywhere near their respective targets even on a 1500 daily kcal total target forces me to eat more than I really desire, all the while keeping net carbs well below <20g/day) - which, frankly, is the easy part!

QUESTION: Is it REALLY better to only eat what you feel hungry enough to swallow … OR in a situation like this, should I trust the math & science and assume that something is going on in my head that’s getting in the way of wanting to eat what’s “good for me?” (Never had any eating disorders, so this would be a new wrinkle, which I doubt).

FWIW, I continue to do daily cardio (20+ minutes) as I have for decades, take regularly walks, do some light weight training, etc., and at least so far I don’t feel run down or tired or anything suggesting that I’m undernourished.

Anyone have any well-informed suggestions on which path to follow? Follow the science? … or follow my gut?

(Full Metal KETO AF) #2

If you’re feeling well and not hungry for more I think it’s okay, if you’re loosing more weight than you want you might need to kick it up, eat more or go to 3 meals. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

@SomeGuy I went through a similar experience when I started keto at the age of 71 Jan 02, 2017. My primary intention was not weight loss, but I thought why not lose those 20 pounds or so I don’t want and get back to 160 where I feel pretty good. When my weight got to 155 after a couple months on keto I decided to stop the loss by simply eating more total calories, adding about a 100 per day every couple weeks. It took me another two months to stop the loss at 145. For the first two months of weight loss I ate 1500 calories per day. That turned out to be a 1K daily deficit! During the whole time I was losing weight I never felt hungry.

In fact, I still hardly ever feel hungry. On the other hand, I hardly ever feel ‘full’. So using hunger and satiety signals don’t work for me.

Thus, I had not gone with the ‘eat to satiety’ plan. I weighed food portions carefully, ate to a set of macros and calculated caloric intake precisely. When the weight loss stopped I was eating 2500 calories per day. My weight stabilized at 145-150 for about a year. That’s when I got a full time job at Walmart. Within a couple of weeks beginning that job, I started losing weight. So I knew I had to up my total calories again and went up to 2700 per day. That stopped the loss and my weight stabilized again at 145-150 for the next year.

(Joey) #4

Thanks to @David_Stilley and @amwassil for your prompt and helpful replies thus far…

What I’m taking away from this is that I might not be able to trust my gut and natural sense of hunger after all - perhaps I need to intervene if I’m not achieving a goal I’ve set for some minimum targeted weight.

Instead, I might need to rely a bit more on the formulae and nutritional math and intervene as need be if I’m losing weight beyond what I’d like.

The fascinating implication is that I may not be able to trust my own hunger level to tell me what my body needs. Instead, I may need to override it to achieve a weight that I’ve concluded that my body “ought to be.”

Sounds like the “eat to satiety” mantra doesn’t really work in this case.

This is an intriguing idea that seems counter-intuitive - but worth reflecting on further. Then again, loading up on saturated fats to improve health (and perhaps lose body fat) is also a somewhat counter-intuitive idea :wink:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #5

You could replicate what I did without necessarily weighing/measuring and counting calories. Just use your scale. Simply eat more until the weight loss stops. Eat that amount for a while to see if your weight stabilizes. If so, done. If not, fine tune up/down. I’ve discovered that if I stay within +/- 100 calories my weight remains stable. If I eat less for a few days, I lose, if more for a few days, I gain.

You might also find this of interest.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #6

I have been helping someone who eats too little and doesn’t loose weight. And people who stall before they get where they want to be, all of them were eating to satiety. I was too, and stalled. I changed some food choices.

You aren’t stalled but maybe loosing more than you feel comfortable with. I agree about some resistance training if you want to gain some muscle. But it sounds like you and I might have less muscle than we did younger when we had that good body weight and having gotten back to that weight now I am still a bit flabby. I never planned on loosing as much as I have when I started KETO. But I will let my body guide me to the fat% that it wants to go to if it’s lower than I projected. Right now I am dropping my projected maintenance weight another 5 lbs. I don’t want to loose weight, but I still need to loose fat. (And also gain muscle)

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #7

Add me to the group of folks who has to keep an eye on eating enough. My appetite varies wildly from day to day, and I can easily under eat for quite a while.

#8

There’s a long thread on here about this but if you’re losing weight along the way, that’s where your extra calories are coming from (something like 1400 from outside calories, 800 or so from your fat stores) and you’re not restricting.
Endogenous calories :grin:
Once you’ve hit where your body wants to be your hunger will probably kick into higher gear. Can you post here to keep us updated?

(Joey) #9

More wonderfully helpful replies above. Thank you!

@Madeleine’s point above remains the key to my original question… as she states that at some point, my hunger “will probably kick into higher gear.”

Since that has not happened yet, this is what got me wondering if I should trust my lack of hunger as an indication that I’m wise to continue consuming far less in calories (while respecting the macronutrient boundaries inherent in a ketogenic diet) more than what the caloric models indicate is required for healthy body maintenance.

To be clear, I never established any “target” for my weight, as body weight was never really my primary concern going into a keto diet in the first place. Sure, I hoped to lose a little pudginess around the waist (and I have!) and at this point I wouldn’t mind losing just a bit more if possible.

My real conundrum hangs on whether I should force myself to eat more than I’m really hankering for - as I did yesterday, for example. And when I did, it didn’t really feel so good afterwards. I felt a bit “overfull” - which did not leave me with nearly as pleasant a feeling as I had enjoyed just after eating (less) to satiety.

What I don’t want to do is allow my metabolic rate to begin to decline - as my body tries to preserve itself? - with a reduced caloric intake. Hence my concern about under-nourishing myself.

Ok, so I will keto onward - and if anything worth sharing develops I will certainly be back with an update. Thanks again to all who have weighed in [yeah, see what I did there?]

#10

I would wait until you get to a weight that feels just right (you mention that you’d be happy to lose a bit more) before worrying about it, keeping in mind that as long as you’re burning body fat you’re not running on a reduced calorie intake. When your calories are too low for you, you’ll know it: you’ll be cold and tired and you won’t want to exercise.

[Personally I’m actually hoping to drop my metabolic rate once I lean up a bit more. Higher metabolism is great for fat loss but not necessarily that great for long-term health and vitality.]

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #11

Do you recall the thread title? I use the search function but it isn’t always as helpful as I’d like.
Thanks!

#12

No, unfortunately… it was within the last few months, I think. Maybe someone else will remember?

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #13

Gotcha. Heh, threads sometimes (often) change direction here and wonderful information can be buried. That’s why I asked. :blush: Thanks for replying!

(Joey) #14

@coffeekittie Hi there… I just used the forum search bar with the single word “satiety” and found a wealth of interesting and informative threads. I probably should have done this BEFORE I started this new thread! Happy hunting.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #15

Excellent. I was just sitting here noodling on search terms. :thinking:

#16

Are you thinking of this one?
Why would my metabolism slow down if I’m getting cals from fat stores?

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #17

I don’t know which thread @Madeleine was referring to. I did read the one you linked. Thank you! I might have to write out my particular circumstance on my accountability thread and see if I get responses there.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

Phinney and Volek found that the typical ketonian who is shedding excess stored fat typically eats about 1000 (kilo)calories less than total energy expenditure when eating to satiety. If your daily caloric need is 2500 calories, your appetite is likely to max out around 1500, the remaining 1000 calories being drawn from adipose stores. Note that as you run out of excess fat to shed, your appetite will gradually rise as you continue eating to satiety, until there is no more excess stored fat to contribute to your daily expenditure, and therefore all 2500 calories have to come from the food you eat. This is perfectly normal when eating to satiety, and I feel for myself that it’s what makes keto feasible for me—I loathe having to count calories and calculate macros. Letting my body do the arithmetic is ideal for me.

(Joey) #19

This sounds like an accurate description of what I am now experiencing … At 5’9" and falling below 150 lbs, perhaps I’ll get there soon enough when I run out of krispy kremes (just kidding - these were never my weakness)

… and this sounds like the state at which I hope to arrive.

Meanwhile, I’ve been convinced by these many helpful replies to just trust my “satiety” - even if it hasn’t always served me well during decades on a HC/LF diet. Will report back as things unfold.

#20

Yes, please! This is a really interesting question and it will be helpful for many folks on here to see how things unfold for you.