What I think Vegans have right - Nitric Oxide & micronutrients

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(Ross) #81

While I think there is reason to question the bias of conclusions drawn in Loma Linda studies, I don’t believe there is much reason to question the base data in those studies like BMI measurements within the population of long term vegans, which is what I’m referencing here.

(Edith) #82

So… the body would not need nitrates to be the nitrogen source for NO production?

If so, then that would still mean an intake of nitrates via vegetables would only pertain to vegans whose protein intake could be quite low and using vegetables for their nitrogen source.

(Ross) #83

NO is produced in one of three ways:

1. eNOS (conversion of L-Arginine, to NO and L-Citrulline by endothelial cells)
2. Dietary Nitrates.
3. Sun exposure.

Pathway 1 can make NO from the L-Arginine
Pathway 2 can make NO from dietary nitrates (mainly vegetables)
Pathway 3 can make NO from sun exposure.

Pathway 1 is very valid but tends to be damaged by SAD (inflammatory heated veg oils, sugar, etc…) and is said to degrade with age, particularly after age 40. I suppose it’s something of an open question if that degradation is diet related or not?

Basic idea is NO from pathways 2 / 3 can substitute for the NO pathway 1 can no longer produce and/or enhance some of the reported benefits of NO in general.

The literature says it’s relatively easy to generate the total amount of NO which should be produced by the potentially damaged pathway 1 (if it were fully healthy) via pathway 2 alone.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #84

That would be my question, especially since these studies were performed after the general adoption of the governmental nutrition guidelines.

(Ross) #85

I think that’s very valid. It would make sense. As identified in original post in the thread, heated veg oils and high blood sugar are what screw up eNOS in the first place, and it quickly degenerates, feeding-back upon itself making vicious cycle. It’s such a young area, I’m not sure we can say how much of that function returns over time once the highly inflammatory effects are removed?

It’s a point of great frustration for me, decades into keto, we have so little basic research done on people who have eaten keto long term to answer such basic questions.

Did a little digging and found this helpful info.
God only knows what “good diet” means in this context, but likely lower sugar would be a decent guess. Presumably, we’re eating a “good diet” and tend to be getting a fair amount of exercise within our community, but even at best case, looks like we drop off fast after age 30, which might explain in part why ppl tend to get fatter as they age.

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4. Aging and NO production

Aging and hypertension are well-documented cardio vascular risk factors.[49],[50] Most of the functional and structural vascular alterations that lead to cardiovascular complications are similar in aging and hypertension.[51] Moreover, these vascular changes associated with essential hypertension are generally considered to be an accelerated form of the changes seen with aging.[52] When we are young and healthy, the endothelial production of NO through L -arginine is efficient and sufficient; however, as we age we lose our ability to synthesize endothelial derived NO. Most of the works on the activity of NO in cells and tissues agree that the bioavailability or the generation of NOS derived NO decreases with aging. It has been proposed that superoxide can scavenge NO to form peroxynitrite and thereby reduce its effective concentrations in cells.[53] It has also been reported that there is decreased NOS expression with aging both in constitutive and inducible isoforms.[54],[55] Berkowitz et al. [56] observed the upregulation of arginase (an enzyme that degrades the natural substrate for NOS, L -arginine) in aged blood vessels and the corresponding modulation of NOS activity. Taddei et al. [12] have shown that there is a gradual decline in endothelial function due to aging with greater than 50% loss in endothelial function in the oldest age group tested as measured by forearm blood flow assays. Egashira et al. [57] reported more dramatic findings in the coronary circulation of aging adults whereby there was a loss of 75% of endothelium-derived nitric oxide in 70-80 year old patients compared to young, healthy 20 year olds. Vita et al. [58] demonstrated that increasing age was one predictor of abnormal endothelium-dependent vasodilation in atherosclerotic human epicardial coronary arteries. Gerhard et al. [59] concluded from their 1996 study that age was the most significant predictor of endothelium-dependent vasodilator responses by multiple stepwise regression analysis. Collectively, these important findings illustrate that endothelium-dependent vasodilation in resistance vessels declines progressively with increasing age. This is illustrated in Figure 4. This abnormality is present in healthy adults who have no other cardiovascular risk factors, such as diabetes, hypertension, or hypercholesterolemia. Most of these studies found that impairment of endothelium-dependent vasodilation was clearly evident by the fourth decade. In contrast, endothelium-independent vasodilation does not change significantly with aging, demonstrating that the responsiveness to NO does not change only the ability to generate it. These observations enable us to conclude that reduced availability of endothelium-derived NO occurs as we age, and to speculate that this abnormality may create an environment that is conducive to atherogenesis and other vascular disorders, including Alzheimers disease. It appears that aging interrupts NO signaling at every conceivable level, from production to inactivation. Given that NO is a necessary molecule for maintenance of health and prevention of disease, restoration of NO homeostasis may provide a new treatment modality for age and age related disease.

(Edith) #86

Many health problems can be reversed as a result of keto/low carb. Type 2 diabetes is one of those problems. Until keto came along it was considered progressive and pretty much incurable. Maybe the damaged pathway of NO synthesis via L-arginine could also be repaired from low carb. The human body is pretty resilient. I know that some parts can become permanently damaged, but for other parts, as long as we are not dead, can have a chance to heal when the cause of the damage has been removed.

Like you said, there are no long term studies on low carb people.

(Ross) #87

It very well might improve things. I suspect that improvement would even be expected given the reduction in sugar and heated toxic oils, but most likely would shift things over around the best-case line of good diet + exercise, which is still represents a significant decrease.

(Edith) #88

I’m sure this means eating healthy whole grains.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #89

And easy on the saturated fats… :grin:

(Vic) #90

Healthy …and…grain in the same sentence. beautiful contradiction :crazy_face:

(Ross) #91
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #92

Interesting that the article seems to completely ignore all the evidence, marshalled by Taubes seven years earlier, to the effect that the body’s hormonal response to the types of food eaten dictates how food is partitioned after ingestion. Taubes’s argument that our hormonal response to food dictates how many calories we eat and store is more in accord with my experience than the standard “eat less, move more” advice we normally get. I shed eighty pounds or so without effort after going keto, and it was certainly not because I ate less or moved more. In fact, I move more these days because I have the energy, not because moving more ever did anything for my body composition.

(Ian) #93

Simplistically, not all vegans are thin or skinny.

I suspect that generally they eat less crap that average folks on a SAD. Obviously a vegan can eat a lot of crap western “food”, however, I believe they are likely to be more conscientious about what they eat healthier than the average western citizen.

Considering the poor energy and nutrient density of their preferred food type, it is likely more of an effort to over consume calories.

I suspect that while not overtly obese, there are quite a few TOFi’s within the vegan community. Being thin does not necessarily equate to healthy. I suspect for a given body weight, someone eating a carnivore or keto way will be metabolically healthier than most vegans.

(Jane) #94

Where did they get their “base data” of BMI vs the diet they follow?

#95

you know I said something WAY back in this thread and heck don’t remember, ain’t gonna read up on it either but I know one thing…vegans have nothing right when it comes to real body physical facts about life and what our systems require. Done, said it.

(Jane) #97

My Dad’s gf is a vegan and the last time we visited they had the house at 78F and she had on two layers of clothing. We were sweating and miserable. Her skin and hair do not look healthy.

My DH always said she doesn’t eat - just mixed up potions in her blender :laughing:

(Ross) #98

Oh that’s so sad! Vegan diets seem pretty difficult to “get right”.
If I were to try one, I’d probably also be eating from a blender much of the time and I’d likely be very dependent on carefully selected blends of pea and rice protein powder (would avoid soy powders due to potential endocrine disruption), perhaps lots of nut butters, fresh lower carb berries and leafy greens, etc… I might have to take the endocrine risk and eat tofu just because there aren’t many other realistic protein options not in powder form. Tempeh makes me want to vomit and gives me a headache. Seitan would concern me since it’s made from wheat, and we changed wheat protein here in the USA into something not really fit for human consumption through the hybridizing efforts associated with the Green Revolution.

Could I survive on such concoctions? Possibly. Would I be happy living that way? Nope.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #99

More and more, the mantra, “Just eat real food,” makes sense to me.