What I think Vegans have right - Nitric Oxide & micronutrients

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long-covid
(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #41

They are when they are used as a nutritional therapy that doesn’t address why the diet was/is deficient in the needed nutrients in the first place.

If we could get obese individuals to eat lots of vegetables to get all the nitric oxide they are missing, I suspect it would not help much if they don’t give up processed sugars and grains.

However, if they just gave up processed sugars and grains, maybe the nitric oxide problem would go away…

They are talking about supplementing with a SAD diet; not getting it in the manner Virginia is suggesting.

(Ross) #42

I addressed that pretty clearly in the root post. It’s not that the diet is deficient so much as the eNOS pathway for NO gets attacked by diet and degrades with age.

Without a doubt, dropping sugars and grains is a good idea, but this doesn’t address the fact that vegans long term vegans seem to be able to eat sugars and grains just fine and don’t get fat…which is what kicked this all off.

Either way, the research is mixed at best and there is little reason to think most individuals would be deficient in that particular amino acid, esp since it tends to be conserved to a large degree & converted back. More raw materials do not necessary equate to higher production unless lack of raw materials with the root cause…

('Jackie P') #43

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7071424/#:~:text=Vitamin%20D%20is%20known%20to,in%20the%20development%20of%20atherosclerosis.
This is very interesting and ties in nicely to the role of vitamin D in immunity and endothelial health!
Thank you.

(Ross) #44

You are very welcome! I am glad this was well revived! I’m shocked this isn’t a hot topic in Keto circles given the about of research!

(Ross) #45

ADA: Inorganic Nitrate Promotes the Browning of White Adipose Tissue Through the Nitrate-Nitrite-Nitric Oxide Pathway

In summary, we identify nitrate as a novel non-β-adrenergic activator of the browning response in WAT. Furthermore, we highlight that this small anion is a potential dietary mediator of protection from and potential therapeutic modality for the treatment of metabolic disease.

Kinda cool, no? Research is showing that Nitric Oxide from dietary nitrate sources (leafy greens, etc…) switches on or converts body fat to brown / beige fat! IE it tells white fat cells to grow mitochondria and turn themselves into little space heaters by burning their fat stores! BTW, I’ve seen another paper that says this only happens in conjunction with some degree of exposure to cool conditions, just FYI.

(Edith) #46

So bacon really is a health food.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #47

Except, the title of the study/article is:

Inorganic Nitrate Promotes the Browning of White Adipose Tissue …

The test rodents were administered inorganic nitrate via water solution of sodium nitrate (NaNO3) while the control were administered sodium chloride (NaCl). Both groups were fed the same diet, which also contained small amounts of organic nitrate. So they actually tested the difference due to ingestion of inorganic nitrate salt, not organic nitrate eaten in the chow. It’s only at the very end of the study they even mention vegetables:

From a nutritional perspective, humans are exposed to nitrate as part of their daily diet, with green leafy vegetables representing a significant source of the anion…

Yet, they did not test green leafy vegetables. They tested inorganic nitrate salt. You could just as well say that humans are exposed to nitrate when they drink a solution of sodium nitrate salt. Or eat anything else that contains nitrates, like processed meats for example. So this tells me not only is it OK to eat processed meats rich in nitrates, but it’s a great way to convert WAT to BAT eating it. :heart_eyes:

@VirginiaEdie Like bacon!

#48

veganism have nothing right on total nutrition and this can easily be learned in truth thru evolution of development thru the brain expanse and more and ALL vegans are never light, thin and ‘perfect with nutritional body function’ at all, but are there some, of course who ‘watch’ and ‘eat to plant or added animal protein perfection in disguise as they would never indulge doing just that’ as required to literally survive in good health on veganism.

So if the first bit is ‘off’ on why are vegans thin it is point blank malnutriion thru missing animal protein sources and if we go there, then we find that the next step, the nitric oxide and micronutrients and put again ALL the data what those micronutrients derive from, plant matter and the low level toxin levels they do bare toward a physical body…in the end I see nothing here on any WHYS of this is truly giving any merit to some ‘nutrient’ or pathway or any other vit or mineral or, well, anything as being a correlation if the first sentence is off and not respected as truth…the just a ‘very far extreme stretch’ one ‘wants to see’ but can’t be proven in any way thru science of it all so that is how I stand on it. Very interesting thread tho. I think trying to find some magic bullet in a disordered eating life plan with what a physical body requires is just so off ya know…yea we can ‘create’ some info but in the end the body is SO physicial and we KNOW that not one carb from plant life is required for total body survival? What we draw or conclude thru guessing is useless against the full real hardcore science… but I say let the veganism figure that out and they do eventually LOL
I think ya hit a dud spud correlation to any truth overall in your post and finding some ‘micro’ truths that just can’t be supported.

(Ross) #49

Well, from what I’ve read, the nitrate content in bacon is in the form of nitrate salts & the concentration is so low as to not make a significant difference in NO production. Worth checking on further however.

(Ross) #50

I think you’re getting a bit too triggered by the vegan part.

I included it because that’s what got me looking down the nitric oxide rabbit hole in the first place and discovered there’s a growing and shocking amount of research out there indicating the dietary nitrate intake (along with micronutrients that support nitric oxide & insulin clearance) is important WRT restoring metabolic health / flexibility.

This important info for some unknown reason hasn’t been widely shared / reported within our LCHF community… which both shocks and bothers me.

Fact is an LCHF diet can include these vegetables. Banting includes most / all of them on their Green and Orange food lists. While some people do have sensitives to things like oxalates, most do not.

#51

I get ya but you personally based it on ‘vegan type’ and rolled from there so you put that entire correlation to the NO reasonings into what? a fantasy post of some kind to support, what? some type of NO is the end all be all? I am now missing your true thoughts on it all and how u truly come to any conclusions since ‘no one will ever, and I mean ever’ eat in a way to support such science so??? and we see it all the time in eating unless controlled on ‘very very short’ term which ‘shows short term science’ but will never ever a whole ya know. I get it, I see it, but in the end I find utterly useless from any type of ‘solid’ foundation.

(Ross) #52

Whut?
Nobody will add fresh leafy vegies to an LCHF diet? Really?

#53

yes and show me long term ‘vegan’ proof of what you are correlating’ cause in the end ‘low carb high fat eating’ is not and never will be ‘a vegan menu ever’ so LCHF is very diff then veganism as a whole so?? You are not putting a real menu, as in veganism as in its true form against lchf which can be varied easily so?? again your ‘micronutrient’ of what controls what is so slack that it is not in the realm of true science or beginnings of some NO being spectacular in its glory to the body ya know.
just chatting out thoughts on it, no fight time LOL I don’t see any science that can lead us where the thoughts of the original post went at all. Maybe just me :wink: but others see it too I am sure and stated such.

to me the first post is so flawed but there is that 'drag maybe, just a minute tiny maybe? correlation that could be researched, studied in real science form, like maybe? but yea that ain’t gonna happen any time soon. I see this path in truth but so overly flawed it holds no merit at this time. Cause some real studies might show paths to more truth but this mute at this time truly.

(Bob M) #54

You don’t have to eat any vegetables at all and yet still have healthy nitric oxide levels. The sun causes nitric oxide levels to go up. There’s l-citrulline, arginine, etc.

There’s really no need to resort to plants for this purpose. (Though I still eat some plants…sometimes.)

(Ross) #55

All good but I think you’re somewhat missing the point of my post & the fact that I went out of my way to state I am not promoting a vegan diet. Let me boil it down a bit.

I could not explain why both long term vegans eating a “well formulated vegan diet” (as best as one can be formulated) and long term LCHF people eating a well formulated ketogenic diet, both looked similar in terms of BMI, body fat and metabolic health (see Loma Linda link/reference above) given the large amount of carbs in the vegan diet. This would at least seem to be in conflict with our hormonal theory of IR, which is the cornerstone of LCHF diets.

That caused me to look into possible ways to explain this conflict. Randle Cycle, while a possible contributing factor did not seem to explain it fully. This led me to the growing body or work regarding the impact on dietary nitrates upon metabolic health. Research like this:

Nitrate and Nitrite in Health and Disease%20through%20non%2Denzymatic%20synthesis.)

The rest you can get from the extensive info above.

Bottom line, as I’ve already said, I’m not telling anyone how they should or should not eat, only sharing what I’ve found which I think is both very interesting and well supported.

(Ross) #56

I think you missed the part above where I mention that the amino acid pathway is disabled with age and exposure to toxic veg oils, probably can’t be successfully enhanced by eating more arginine or citrulline, and doing such is not without known significant health risks…

Sun exposure is a valid way to get more NO, but how much sun can people really get in a day?

#57

I get that you are not promoting veganism cause ya said it a many few times and we get that. You are putting veganism against all other eating plans and making it all about nitric oxide and we can all find so many flaws from the get go…of ‘all in vegans’ who eat animal protein and would never tell ya that cause they are not in a controlled scientific study about it and NO and your personal thoughts on NO and plants only and vegan lifestyle and ‘into that realm of lchf and more’ is useless cause unless there is ‘real science control’ on this whole thing thru like 5 yrs plus of study’…pfffttt…again I gave ya a what if these correleate but in no way will this ever be fact or near fact in any terms.
I see the path but so far off ya know----cool thoughts and progress of that but in no way of any substance truly

(Ross) #58

The post/studies are about biochemistry and observation mostly. Loma Linda has run many long term studies.
Am I claiming this is the one true way? Nope. It’s compelling and possibly an important tool for LCHF.

#59

agreed a path to much more but not enough ever in controlled study truths that have’t happened to throw NO as some infinite factor. Intersting path of course, but no way real at all yet…could be, sure but so many variables that if ‘this X shows infinite Y’ then ya gotta get everyone to eat perfect, again ain’t gonna happen

(Edith) #60

I guess we’re giving you a hard time because as you say, “It could be a tool for LCHF.” Maybe the nitrates in the vegetables are only important in terms of a vegan diet because vegans otherwise don’t get enough nitrates and amino acids (L-arginine) any other way except through vegetables; whereas, non vegetarian LCHFers get plenty through eating meat, eggs, dairy, etc.