What do you think about this article?

(Omar) #1

The author talk about palm oil as if it is a saturated fat.

If I understood correctly, the study concluded that saturated fat cause fatty liver.

(Chris) #2

Bad science. Not based on a healthy diet, those patients were eating carbs.

(MelissaH) #3

Bad everything! One meal causes insulin resistance?

(*Tame Those Ghrelin Gremlins) #4

If that article was true then wouldn’t half the Keto population be having those issues? They make it seem like eating fat is bad. I mean sure if every meal you eat is bacon you definitely would have health problems with or without Keto. Most don’t eat like that.

(Omar) #5

I think so

(Omar) #6

yes

it can take 20 years of bad diet to reach the point of insulin resistance

(KetoQ) #7

There are a number of vague and contradictory things in this article. Let’s start with the overall conclusion.

Article states: “Although a diet high in saturated fats is linked to NAFLD, it is not clear how fatty foods initiate these changes in the liver.”

Then goes on further down: "Currently, the reasons why high-fat diets cause NAFLD and metabolic disorders are not known. Similarly, it is not understood why certain people who eat a high-fat diet do not develop these conditions, and why some people who eat a healthful diet, do. "

To me, they are making a blind leap in linking a high fat diet to NAFLD. They are stuck in the frame of thinking fat = bad. However, they admit they can’t explain exactly how they reached that conclusion.

Based on that admission, the study appears to have proven nothing.

Then, I have questions about the study itself.

  1. Study used “14 lean and healthy participants.” What does that mean? For example, are their HbA1c’s and glucose in a normal range? Are they entering this study with a pre-existing insulin insensitivity that would bias the results? A criteria like that is key. Just because they are lean and appear healthy, does not mean they are metabolically healthy, and that goes to the core of the researchers’ questions.

  2. The study says: “The researchers provided a quantity of fat (palm oil) equivalent to a single rich meal.” What defines a rich meal? Rich in fat? In calories? Does it mean they drank down the equivalent of 1200-1500 or more calories of palm oil? 27 tsp of palm oil = 1074 calories and 121g of fat. That’s not a normal meal, even for strict keto followers.

And as we know about the satiating effects of fat, it is hard to eat that much straight fat in one meal.

  1. They also fail to put their test in proper context. Why palm oil? Why not test with sugar and rice and oatmeal and mac and cheese? What do other foods do to the liver? What effects do high glycemic foods have on the liver? Per chance, might they be the cause of NAFLD?

What if palm oil shows a healthier metabolic response than other foods, especially carbs and grains? What does that mean to their hypothesis? Well, it completely torpedos it.

(Dawn O Miller) #8

This is a mistake health professionals and researchers make every time. Just because you look “thin” means you are healthy. I was 136lbs and had a BMI of 23 for my height and yet was suffering from what I later realized was prediabetes, (and looking back I suspect I was suffering from NAFLD related to my high intake of fructose from the fruit smoothies I was drinking every day). Yet I knew something was wrong, I was tired all the time, constipated, bloated and dealing with symptoms related to chronic low blood sugars after every meal. Despite all that, my doctors told me I was healthy. I remember at the time I would go to different doctors offices and the workers/doctors always commenting why I was there, I was so skinny, implying I couldn’t possibly have health problems.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

That is because the fructose half of the sucrose is eaten in an amount that overwhelms the liver and causes de novo lipogenesis. The dietary fat gets added to the adipose tissue along with the glucose half of the sucrose, thus promoting obesity. So you get fatty liver disease and obesity—two for the price of one! :bacon::bacon:

ETA: What I don’t understand is why they distinguish between AFLD and NAFLD—it’s the same disease, caused by the same process!

(Brian) #11

Honestly, they lost me a “palm oil”. I’m really cautious about using the stuff, try to avoid it when possible. Isn’t it pretty highly refined like many of the vegetable oils we try to avoid?

Just another junk article to me. (sigh)

(Chris) #12

Every seed oil is highly refined. I heard here yesterday that some are cold-pressed and therefore less inflammatory, but that’s not going to cause me to have the least bit of curiosity.

(Omar) #14

me too

I thought I was missing something.

But since I am not then I conclude that this is a pure junk article

(Full Metal KETO AF) #15

Okay, I have read that palm oil is in the same catagory with coconut oil, both of which come from palm trees. They are not quite a fruit, seed or nut but a combination of the three. Generally coconut and palm oils are safe for people with tree nut allergies. Palm oil is generally processed for shelf stable processed foods. But you can get extra virgin cold pressed palm oil and it is perfectly fine for keto. It contains MCT chains like coconut oil but in smaller quantities and is generally a bit more expensive than coconut oil. My local health food store has organic red palm oil which is a big part of some regional African cuisines.

#16

In total, 14 lean and healthy participants were involved in the study.

image

(Bunny) #17

It can, but it’s not really the ketogenic diet or the saturated fat specifically, the problem is, some people who do a ketogenic diet may not like eggs (bad move) and that is were your going to get most of your choline and have eliminated other foods that were rich in choline or not eating foods higher in methionine?

There are some cases of people successfully reducing choline and methionine in the diet (high or low carb) to the point of creating a fatty liver while doing keto, saturated fat is not going to create the fatty liver, it is for lack of other micronutrients…

Footnotes:

[1] “…Eggs, liver, and peanuts, are especially rich in choline (27). Major contributors to choline in the American diet are meat, poultry, fish, dairy foods, pasta, rice, and egg-based dishes (77). Spinach, beets, wheat, and shellfish are also good sources of the choline metabolite, betaine (78). …Linus Pauling Institute Oregon State University

[2] “…A deficiency of methionine can lead to inflammation of the liver (steatohepatitis), anemia, and greying hair. However, a diet low in methionine may also extend lifespan and reduce risk of cancer. High methionine foods include nuts, beef, lamb, cheese, turkey, pork, fish, shellfish, soy, eggs, dairy, and beans. …” …More

(Brian) #18

This is one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with the idea of severely restricting variety in the diet, at least for any considerable length of time.

FWIW, I love eggs. They’re nutritional powerhouses. I feel bad for people who can’t use them because of allergies and such.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #19

On the other hand, there was that experiment when Stefansson and Andersen ate an “Eskimo” diet for a year, and “failed” to develop any nutrient deficiencies, thus validating Stefanssons’s assertions about the Inuit diet.

It seems that a well-formulated ketogenic diet alters the playing field significantly, and that some of the nutrients we considered “essential” are essential only in the context of a high-carbohydrate, high-sugar diet.

(Brian) #20

I don’t doubt Stefansson and Anderson, Paul. But it’s still an N=2. Could it be repeated with 2,000 people and have identical results? I don’t know. I do rather suspect that as the N= number grew, the number of outliers would also increase, people that for whatever reason, didn’t thrive like Stefansson and Anderson.

FWIW, I agree that a ketogenic diet alters the playing field.

Not really arguing, just sharing the thoughts that come to mind. :slight_smile:

(Bunny) #21

One thing also to consider is organ meats are very nutrient dense (an endless list of vitamins, minerals and trace elements, glandular hormones and protomorphagens) especially raw so their is going to be some choline and methionine in that mix especially in the liver of wild animals! So yes very “essential,” we are not talking about eating only cooked muscle meats when comparing a traditional raw organ meat Eskimo diet to a “well formulated (that includes methionine and choline)” Ketogenic diet. You would have to be close insane to think you could eliminate those nutrients otherwise! That also applies to low carb or high carb (sugar). No carb? (cooked muscle meat only diet) Your body will convert its reserve of available micronutrients up to a point then it will stop (make it appear to not need micronutrients) and start creating breaks in your chromosomes equivalent to getting blasted by an x-ray machine (see also professor Bruce Ames “triage theory” RDA and nutritional deficiencies)?

BTW: the traditional Eskimo Inuit diet is a high carb diet; a good portion of that raw high fat and protein intake is being converted into glucose and glycogen…

Footnotes:

[1] “…They also eat birds and eggs, and fish including sculpin, Arctic cod, and lake trout”, said John, a western scientist, according to Lecoresorts.com. He added that Inuit people also eat plant-based foods such as seaweed, grass, roots, and berries. …” …More

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

Well, there are the observations of the British colonial medical service of the Maasai, who ate pretty much carnivore, and their neighbors the Kikuyu, who were mostly vegetarian, and Mann’s investigation of the Maasai in the 1960’s, not to mention observations made of various Plains Indian tribes in the U.S. before they adopted the commercial Western diet, various other tribal societies who avoided plant foods until they were contacted and Westernized, etc., etc.

Seems to me there’s enough evidence out there, that I have no concerns continuing eating a low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diet for the rest of my life.