What do we really know about ancestral diet?


(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #101

I respectfully disagree with that last statement. We can derive from some isotopes in bones how much meat the animal in question ate (similar to carbon dating something), and whether that meat came from vegetarians or other meat eaters. And these isotopes clearly indicate that we ate a lot of meat as hunters and gatherers, and we were on top of the food chain (we ate other meat eaters).

Mike Eades talks about this on youtube, and I could dig out some papers if you like. There are estimates that about 65% of all calories came from animals, and about 15% to 20% were carbohydrates.

Sounds like Goscienski didn’t look to hard for evidence with his claims.

(mole person) #102

This isn’t as clear cut as Eades’ suggests. Yes, the quantities of nitrogen isotopes in bone collagen puts ancestral homo sapiens and Neanderthals as top level carnivores. And yes, they are hovering way up there with the scavenger species, who have very high nitrogen isotope concentrations due to bioaccumulation from eating other carnivores.

But Eades leaves out a very important factor. It’s not just bioaccumulation that leads to very high collagen levels of nitrogen. The age of the consumed animal is another accumulator.

We know for a fact that ancestral humans hunted and killed absolutely enormous and long lived mammals. I don’t think we can know how much accumulation this accounts for since animals that size don’t exist anymore (maybe whales?).

But anyhow, this nitrogen isotope evidence line is interesting and certainly implied that we ate a lot of meat but I’ve seen no analysis that concludes from it that we didn’t still eat a fair bit of plant matter.

It’s my belief that we probably generally didn’t have much in our diets, but it cannot be concluded from this line of evidence.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #103

No doubt. And I have received a lot of bashing in other threads for suggesting that eliminating all plant-based food may not be the best course of action :slight_smile:

A one-sided diet (no plants/no carbs) can counter the effect of another one-sided diet (high-carb crap for decades), but that doesn’t imply that it’s necessarily the best diet in the long run.


ahhh very interesting in that not one source can ever say thru a scientific stuff of long term carnivore protein amts can ever be or will never ever be too much. Protein is not an issue ever if no plant material, crap frankefoods are ever involved studies have happened. Long term ever. So we have to ‘deuce’ what we ‘might conclude’ and more. Won’t ever go there.

a healthy level of protein and fat needed by ANY AND ALL carnivores leading active and energy need lives full of pizz and vinegar means they require that amt to live fully and actively. Show where this is not true ever in a science study.

read up on GNC please in its fullness of a true carnivore menu vs. ever ingesting any other foods and then show me the science behind any of that nonsense.

I get this. Those with multi auto immune issues and use being so bodily different in disease and more should go there, but I think you left being all those who ‘need PKD and more’ into a very narrow parameter that fits you personally. I get that truly cause a heavy protein vs fat peramiter fits a lot of us yet those needing more can’t get on board and it is no diff. than vegans vs. meat eaters. It goes to personal individual needs way more narrow for each of us and a lot of protein how you said it in your post has no proof or reverence when it applies to all.

Very surpised by your post actually. What is required by your needs on carnivore will not be trending toward a PKD needed by others and yet it seems you feel this is the only way a carnivore can gain true health for them personally.

Again very surprised by this???

Thing is 2-4 lbs of meat per day is perfect for some. What the heck is wrong with they require in their lifestyle that doesn’t equal yours?

carnivore is not about protein intake ever yet you just put that ‘restriction’ on it. I know you know carnivore LOL and ain’t saying you don’t know you personally on what it takes for you but I hope you are not suggesting what doesn’t work for you on carn won’t and doesn’t work for others in their personal journey on carnivore. Cause I am so point blank different in my carnivore plan then you and thriving, so…

good chat and a fine discussion for sure. not coming at ya but I think what narrows down for you is now a big influence on what it takes for a different carnivore.


yea and that has been known as a ‘real truth’ and not ever questioned…it has LOL
old ancient before ‘civilization’ kicked in and they ate whatever they could to survive. anything close to when agriculture and civilized groups got together to from any type of community, nope and will never be.

(Jane Srygley) #106

Humans don’t need to CONSUME carbohydrates because of gluconeogenesis.

Honestly, it’s a little weird that someone on a keto forum would claim that it’s literally insane to believe that people don’t need carbohydrates when ketosis occurs in the absence of carbohydrates. Eating zero carbs is a completely viable option because of ketosis and gluconeogenesis (which I’m not sure I’m spelling correctly).

(mole person) #107

Except that I was keto for two years prior to giving up plants. I lost all my weight down to 108 lbs in that time, my skin cleared of rosacea and sebhoriac dermatitis, my energy was better, and my multi day a week migraines and chronic abdominal pain got somewhat better.

But my blood pressure and heart rate were still sky high. I went carnivore and this began to resolve immediately. I went from regular 160/110’s to 103/72 as of yesterday’s measure. My heart rate used to be 100 all the time. It’s now generally between 55-80.

But more interestingly, my migraines went away entirely, my abdominal pain is almost alway absent, and my trigeminal neuralgia has gone into full remission and I’ve gotten of all of my drugs. This all happened in the first two months but continues after a full year.

I’ve had bloodwork done to look at vitamin and mineral levels and I appear healthier than anytime in the last decade. I also feel that way.

So I don’t know if it’s the best course for everyone, but it’s the best for me right now, and for many others finding similarly.


THIS! and I believe in full truth the body was ketogenic full on in mega ancient times thru evolution and ‘glucose’ burn body became a ‘real known thing’ as we turned to group civilization and agri. to support big populations in one area.

Ketogenic lifestyle was first. Could we survive on glucose burn of course as our back up survival. When it switched, ketone burn to all nasty glucose burn did we fail the body, oh heck yea :sleepy:

ok ya’ll got me started here HAHA
but Jane is right.

(Jane Srygley) #109

I just asked about consuming too much protein in another carnivore group and everyone was like NO YOU’RE FINE LOL. I think Gabrielle Lyon is on the right track when she says that this .8 oz protein per kg body weight is just enough to stave off disease. I think Benjamin Bikman does not put a limit on protein AND we need more protein as we age (like myself). Also meat is so incredibly satiating that unless the protein is in the form of sweet protein bars, my guess is we won’t eat more than what our bodies need on a daily basis. Having said that, however, I tend to believe that feasting and fasting more closely mimics the ancestral way of eating. I doubt that humans were bagging mammoths or bison daily.

(Jane Srygley) #110

I believe that the reason we are attracted to sweet foods and to colorful fruits was a seasonal phenomenon to put on weight for the winter, much like bears. I don’t think that humans are at all healthy being in “glucose burn” all year long.

I have heard of but haven’t read this paper but I’m going to read it after I get home today (I actually need to do some work at work now :wink:) It’s called “Lost Seasonality and Overconsumption of Plants” and was written by Sally Norton, who advocates a Low Oxalate diet.



yea we can survive on plants and they need ‘others’ to displace their seeds/nuts etc for natural survival.


meat runs for ya. hunting is rough on prey animals. they run and well felled they give natural nutrition, all that ever is needed.

plants stand and hold, give survival thru toxins to not eat me.

I mean basic crap if ya ask me LOL

(Windmill Tilter) #112

Interesting. That’s a book that’s been on my “to read” list for way to long. Time to put that library card to good use… :smile:

(Justin Jordan) #113


We don’t know a lot of stuff. Most nutrition research, such as it is, is operating within the context of the SAD or something very much like it. So yeah, maybe Baker’s blood glucose and insulin is fine, because the context is different.

But since we don’t know, his handwaves are just faith.

(mole person) #114

That’s because there are no studies of long term carnivores not because long term high protein carnivory is necessarily healthy. And there are no studies on long term carnivores in part because this is a relatively new phenomenon with only tiny numbers of true long term carnivores.

What studies? There have never been any studies on the health of the carnivore diet.

Yes, this is true by definition. The question is: “is there a level above which you begin to get the very metabolic syndrome most people here are trying to avoid?”.

We want to address these questions honestly and without bias. I’m sure you’re aware that many carnivores begin putting on weight again. Why is this happening? How many of them are actually testing to see if maybe their insulin and fasting glucose are actually rising on their steak-fest diets.

I’ve been doing PKD for all of a few weeks, I’ve been carnivore for an entire year. But I never did the multi pound a week version because I have strong doubts about it’s long term heathfulness. It might be fine, I don’t know. But neither does anyone else because there is no science supporting that diet. That is why I recommend, for people doing such an experimental diet, that they track their glucose and insulin. And if they do find that they are trending upwards, to have a serious pause and consider perhaps taking steps to reverse that state.

Just because this is what a lot of carnivores tout as their ideal diet doesn’t make it actually a good one. Again, there is no science behind that way of eating. All those people are flying on a wing and a prayer. Maybe the all you can eat steak buffet is fine, but maybe a good chunk end up fat and sick. Remember, all the vegans who quit veganism because they are ill leave or are kicked out of the forums and the other vegans don’t hear from them. I saw people being kicked out of carnivore forums for far less. You don’t hear from the failures.


simple. The body wants and requires full nourishment when it only has less than stellar nourishment vs. frankenfoods and non essential carbs which are now overly sweetened thru gmo and other thru decades of abuse. Heal time requires a lot people can’t ‘put into context’, yet we see this all thru life with not accepting natural order of things and we can control. manipulate, mangle all human cellular levels to true perfection. The body must rebalance hormones and more, ie putting on some lbs thru years of abuse to balance. Simple truly if ya think about it but many can’t and won’t go there.

and no, MOST do not put on lbs. unless life forces of where they came dictate that if they are that person in need of true healing, and keeping the faith carnivore always does everything in it needs for healing, then after those gainers gain and then they lose so…?? cause those who will not commit longer term never get carnivore benefits never see the other part of it as most carns who can lose it easy on plan then. Time commitment never adopted by those who gain…run and scream as usual from what they don’t know and understand.

no animal eating animal gets ‘too much protein’…lets blood test the lion or wolf. not applicable for humans? eh

got you by an additional 1.5 yrs more and on true carnivore sites such those with long long long term veterans living thru auto immune and those with no med situations and more. So who trumps who on this one? not sure HAHA so we all that a draw :slight_smile:

thing is if one says protein is too much in a carnivores life and you said… All those people are flying on a wing and a prayer…then that is every single eating plan any person ever attempts. Fork over every plan eating known to mankind ‘as a plan; cause most if not 100% of them have some type of deficiency know by you. Too much protein? Too many carbs? Too few kcals? Too few fasting times to give XYZ for optium balance? Too much non organic veg’…fruit out of season and not local to your region, too much farmed meat and not grass fed only? Too little exercise for what you eat? and it is required? Draw the line in something that isn’t silly…if one on carnivore eats just as a lion, is the liojn inslin resistant and sickly cause he ate too much gazelle?

ust saying cause you are so narrow in a way that you might have lost insight of it all to fit your personal plight and now think carnivore is not what it should be and only PKD is the answer to total health? Thing is I love your plan and what you guys achieve but I think if anyone says protein overload is real on carnivore has no idea of true protein functions in the body of an entire eating carnivore situation. Did ya read enough?

thing is and I say, I believe as a lot of carns do is plant toxins are never needed in the body but at no point is over eating protein ever, not ever, an issue with 99.9% of carnivores who adopt this lifestyle. Fat intake, oh yea we have tummy issues thru adapt time but protein, nope.

If one goes macro and has med issues thru life, then yea I can see a lot of 'extra added ‘too much of protein or fat’ is overkill etc. debate, but if you pull it all down and life is meat protein best and fat for survival, in the normal most human this will never be an issue.

We get each other LOL and I know we do but to state that the 24/7 all you can eat ‘steak’ version as noted more as ‘a sub-par’ version won’t ever cut it with me.

(mole person) #116

When a lion kills a gazelle what do they bury their fangs into? Not the lean muscle meat but the organs and all the fat surrounding those organs, they leave the “steaks” for the hyenas and buzzards. But also, we’re not lions.

You missed my point. I wasn’t crowing about my long term carnivory but explaining that my concerns far predate my recent PKD trial. Who’s right, assuming either of us is, has nothing to do with whether we’ve been doing it ten years or are full time vegetarians.


I stated neither trumps it but thought you were puffing it out LOL
cool there

fangs go into the neck for fastest quick kill to being it down obviously. Not one lion will leave much to the vultures in general depeding on size of kill and more. Of course they go for insides, best of the best :slight_smile: Is that too much protein in every kill and every bite for a carnivore, no and never will be. Weak argument on too much protein as in 24/7 steak buffet (as in a sub par way to handle carnivore) cause carnivores do and cap their protein/fat intake all the time. Of course this natural and a normal function in life when one adapts thru…yet one who hasn’t had very long term carnivore or fighting other med issues in life might never see it that way, but it is what it is, many carns eat ALL the meat and seafood they need every single day and thrive. people might not see it as such so saying one can get ‘too much’ protein on carnivore is just oh so wrong. Just the worst thing written in my eyes ever if one considers carnivore plan in whole.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #118

For what it’s worth, I lost a rather large (~200 lbs) male goat to wolves one winter while living at Lake Laberge. Every part of him below the base of the skull was gone. And I guess the only reason his head was intact was that his skull was too tough/thick for them to break open.


yea I lost my oldest Boer goat to a wild dog pack. Guts eaten first I am sure and not much left but head and hide. I hear ya there.

(mole person) #120

“Captive lions suffer serious nutritional deficiencies if fed only muscle meat. Lions preferentially eat the intestines and organs of prey animal, continuing to eat virtually everything else including some bones. Those organs and bones are essential to provide the vitamins and minerals required for good lion health.”

“The book goes on to say that the lions often gorge themselves first on the gut and internal organs first, suggesting a preference for the internal organs of the body, perhaps due the importance of these to their nutritional requirements in providing both fat and vitamins found in and around the gut.”

“Perhaps unsurprisingly, feeding lions whole animal prey to eat is recommended as the simplest way to provide a balanced nutrition and diet for lions.”

"obesity is a potential problem in captive lions. Given their sedentary lifestyle in captivity their food must be restricted to meet their needs, if given too much they will overeat. Additionally, starve days are recommended to mimic their natural feeding frequency."

“All-meat diets are high in phosphorous and have little-to-no calcium. They also may be lacking in vitamins A, E and D, which are found in adipose or organ tissues. Vitamins B and K are provided by gut contents of whole prey and would be lacking in an all muscle-meat diet.”

"It appears that big cats require a substantial amount of calcium from bone consumption to balance out the phosphorus in the meat and organ heavy diet."

I’m sorry, but a steak fest diet had nothing in common with how a healthy carnivore truly eats.