Were we meant to be old school vegetarian in Spring and modern carnivore in late Autumn?

[FrankoBear]

Seasonal eating rhythms.

Helps us understand different recommendations on the forums. Some eat meat. Some eat sweet potatoes. Some eat berries. Some eat greens. It’s a global ketogenic movement, but we are in different seasons.

Keto is a winter diet when we burn our body fat.

Like we move to control immediate hunger and then we adjust our daily or eating windows, then with our fasting, our weekly or monthly feeding patterns. The planet has its seasons. We are part of the planet.

Food industry would have us stuck and addicted to eating for winter with autumnal foods, bliss point foods of a deadly mix of carbs and fats and sugar. They would have us stuck in late summer and autumn.

Avoid autumal stasis once you’e at maintenance.

Don’t become a TOFI apple this Halloween.

Old school vegetarian (from the early Seventh Day Adventist dietary studies) is someone who only eats meat once per week.

DEFoW Autumnal Diet Avoidance Radar - D.A.D.A.R

Podcast 42 - Don't Eat For Winter - Downfall via the Carb-Fat Combination —...

[amwassil]

Short answer: no.
Long answer: Pleistocene.

[Fangs]

No.

We are now SO far from a true natural food cycle and food choice etc. It is a lost cause now on food on this planet mostly. Humans are not naturally connected to this planet anymore. All going downhill.

[ctviggen]

It’s definitely no. What we likely did was eat more of whatever vegetables/fruits we could find, assuming we knew which ones wouldn’t kill us. We also likely did something to detoxify some of them, like potatoes.

[FrankoBear]

No

Short answer: no.

But Cian Foley presents a convincing anthropological story in the podcast that will change your mind.

Regaining the seasonal modified protein fast and building of some subcutaneous white fat to convert into brown fat in autumn under the influence of leptin seem all components, that may be missed in static eating, for sustainable nutritional health.

It also solves the inevitable, observed keto plateau from eating in seasonal stasis year round.

Or, is he selling something? It’s so sad we have to ask.

[FrankoBear]

@atomicspacebunny Bunny. Your interesting posts about starch* and a triangulation of anthropology and potatoes (three times fried to remove the water) inspired this post. I’d love to hear what you think about seasonal eating.

(* I don’t think the respondents you had allowed time to think about their answers through a keto lens. I’m starting to understand. That resistant starch helps preserve the mucus that sits above the glycocalyx of the large intestinal lining by being a food for mucogenic associated gut biota. So that starch feeds the gut biota, it does not enter the circulation as carbohydrate. It also stimulates butyric acid production in the intestinal lumen, once again by feeding gut biota. I thought that was to do with fibre but now I can learn more.)

So there may be a time appropriate to eat resistant starches matched to seasonal changes?

[CFLBob]

I’ll have to listen to Ivor Cummins podcast. From my listening over the years, I’ve always thought he had good thought processes; probably because many of the things he does (root cause analysis for one example) are things I’m used to from aviation design.

But the topic made me think of this (even though it oozes CICO):

For non-cyclists, O’Grady does cartoons for the magazine Velo News. Well, he used to back when I read it now and then.

Mad Blog Media

[Fangs]

When you check out the Don’t Eat for Winter site, he lists the 10 guidelines to escape the ‘infinite autumn’ foods available.

#3 clearly states: Fat and Protein should be eaten together. (For Spring and Summer)

(So that goes against your thread title right there, should we be vegetarian in spring? Clearly his quidelines say NO actually.)

But it is a fun little new wrapped up and branded way to get your attention again for the same old basic info of…eat natural food. drop sugar and big carbs…exercise…do not fall into the gluttony of ‘crap processed readily available food’ (labeled as autumn foods, which is eating big protein, big fat, BIG carbs all at the same time, the infamous standard horrible diet out there.)

So I see this as a normal ‘go low carb’ menu he is plugging. He wrapped some good thoughts in that eating seasonal foods means you are eating local, fresher, more restrictive IF you hold to your regional area and to pair up good protein and fat and to be sure to eat leaner meats when you eat higher carb foods…….all his info is standard stuff out there already…wrapped in a ‘seasonal’ bow…very smart branding I think. I give him a high five on covering in this concept.

I get it. He has good advice. He says our old time, animal instincts type foods are more available in autumn when it seems all animals needed to store fat for winter to survive. Now he says this autumn gluttony from nature which is needed for survival is now available 24/7, 365 in processed, high carb convenience foods, low quality foods, gmo type things, sugary junk mostly etc.

I do need to read a bit more on him but from what I see he is saying eat a good menu. Eat smart. His 10 guideline steps are basic things we all know…well us who care to know it, know it LOL and heck even #10 on the list isn’t even food related, it just says get out in nature and have fun

[atomicspacebunny]

That resistant starch helps preserve the mucus that sits above the glycocalyx of the large intestinal lining by being a food for mucogenic associated gut biota.

Just like our veins and arteries have glycocalyx which are so long they can go around the earths circumference twice connected end to end of course…or so it is said. So does our intestinal tract?

[1] What is the Glycocalyx made of?

The intestinal epithelium is a continuous single layer of cells that covers the entire surface of the intestinal wall facing the intestinal lumen. …This cell has, on its luminal surface, projections termed microvilli. These microvilli in turn, have projections of glycoprotein molecules which are termed the glycocalyx. …More

[2] What type of epithelial cells line the small intestine?

A glycocalyx can also be found on the apical portion of microvilli within the digestive tract, especially within the small intestine. It creates a meshwork 0.3 μm thick and consists of acidic mucopolysaccharides and glycoproteins that project from the apical plasma membrane of epithelial absorptive cells. …More

[3] “…It is now well established that some of the starch in the diet reaches the colon…” “…However, in the case of host glycoproteins and mucopolysaccharides, such an estimate cannot be made easily…” …More

[4] “…This includes resistant starch, non-starch polysaccharide fibers, oligosaccharides, and simple sugars which have significance in colon health. The fermentation of resistant starch produces short-chain fatty acids, including acetate, propionate, and butyrate and increased bacterial cell mass. …” …More

[5] Podcast #117 Uncovering Resistant Starch w/ Dr. Grace Liu - Bulletproof Radio

[6] Podcast #177 - Dr. Grace Liu: Fixing the Gut Microbiome with Resistant Starch and Probiotics

[7] Resistant Starch and Colon Cancer

[8] Diet Linked to Bacteria and Certain Types of Colorectal Cancer

[VirginiaEdie]

So… a while ago when I read something about resistant starch, it said that it was starch such as potato or rice that had been cooked and then cooled. Does that mean the starchy food has to be eaten cold, or can it be reheated and still be resistant?

[VirginiaEdie]

I found this on Dr. Ken Berry’s YouTube channel.

[Fangs]

Thank you Virginia for posting this.
If I hear resistant starch one more time on a keto forum I will just pass out HAHA

everyone wants a magic pill with food, this resistant starch chat is just that.

[FrankoBear]

Get the smelling salts ready for @Fangs

These two go into it a bit deeper than Dr. (bias is showing) Berry

Speaking of which he left a comment on their video:

Presenting Dr. Berry’s video, while fun to watch, and he likes to claim that common sense is some kind of authority, it just is only a philosophical argument: argumentum ab auctoritate

Some interesting parameters developing.

The KetoConnect pair use a quantifiable dose of processed potato starch.

Dr Berry and his n = 5, has type 2 diabetics reporting on eating cooked and cooled pasta. Two different plant sources of starch. Pasta is an RS3, whereas potato starch is an RS2.

Now, back in 2017 when it was all the rage to argue about resistant starch, I just wrote it off as I was on keto and I didn’t need it.

But @atomicspacebunny Bunny has some interesting points to make about the gut biome and butyrate producing gut bacteria in the large intestine (colon), the place where we are at risk of colonic cancer.

So, it’s worth another look. The fibre debate as we see the rise of the carnivore diet showed us the science and the lack of science. With pro-fibre advocates pinning their hopes on a mouse study that showed that the mucus layer thinned in the colon when mice were fed no fibre. Dr. Salad (Dr. Saladino) did a good job of pulling that study apart. The interesting thing here is that we move from one indigestible substrate (plant fibre) for people, to another indigestible molecule, potato starch.

I’m suggesting RS2 potato starch as a first try.

So I was thinking I would do an n=1 over the weekend.

On further thought I wondered if we could use the brain power and enthusiasm of the ketogenic forums to design and test a resistant starch experiment?

If the resistant starch dose results in a rise in blood glucose and drops volunteers out of ketosis, we have one answer.

If it does not, then we have the challenge of further research and the ability to consider that resistant starch may have its unique place in gut health, especially for those wanting to follow carnivore diets over a long term.

How would we design an experiment?

@atomicspacebunny probably has a per lb of body weight dose of resistant starch, probably an RS2 Type 2 resistant starch (?), we could use as standard? A dose, hopefully, that feeds the biome and does not inadvertantly push into rising blood glucose.

If we design something, we could present it to the forums as a community science experiment and see if we could generate some significant data?

Ref: https://www.ketogenicforums.com/search?q=resistant%20starch

[Fangs]

LOL…all cool for me. I won’t type RS anymore. I won’t be chatting RS anymore. I threw in my cards. My deck is fully dealt. I will not get a new deck and play.

I can’t play the carb pushers games on a ketogenic forum. I can’t go there. I won’t go there cause there is always going to be SO MANY sides on science of ‘exact body functions’ and what it effects, what it does not effect, bad effects that might correct some good and more. I ain’t got it in me to even bother explaining my science to carbies and I ain’t gonna post small true facts over and over again.

All you guys wanting to do that have at it and have fun and see where it all goes.

hey how about my info on the ‘seaonal’ don’t eat winter foods post to you…you asked if he was selling something? What are your conclusions on it? This of course being what the thread is about and not the other. just wondering

[FrankoBear]

Adding some ideas from the YouTube comentariat: Jonathan Passey8 months ago (edited)

The percentage of resistant starch in a cooked and cooled potato is still rather low (mostly regular starch) the percentage of resistant starch in that bag if eaten cold should be close to 100%. Your comment isn’t relevant but it does highlight the complexity of the issue. Lots of foods if cooked then cooled get hyped as having resistant starch and being lower glycemic but doubling the level of resistant starch from 3% to 6% of total carbs doesn’t make a huge difference on blood sugar response.

[FrankoBear]

I get it. He has good advice.

I liked your comment and agree.

He is presenting another version of good advice. Demonstrating creativity by taking the information that is known, reorganising it, looking at it from a different point of view, and re-presenting it with a modified story that recaptures the audience’s imagination.

And he put it in a book.

[Fangs]

Cool. and he is making a good income/living off it…I applaud him. A new twist on an old game and good money doing it, genius LOL

Yea from the stuff I saw on him he offers good advice and good sciences and has followers for sure…I do like his spin in branding.

[atomicspacebunny]

The interesting thing here is that we move from one indigestible substrate (plant fibre) for people, to another indigestible molecule, potato starch.

Interesting that fiber itself can cause colon cancers or promote them, it is the the starch in the fiber that prevents it (if it does have any including the quality of it?) but it seems like it has to to do with the soil quality now days and the hybridizing away from the original form of the plant.

If you look at modern and ancient bushmen of antiquity they tend to eat a lot of roots or tubers that grow below the ground not the plants above (which have more medicinal purposes)?

And then we have the herbicides, fungicides and insecticides etc. but then with organic you could be exposed to unusual bacteria’s but that would be more of a hormetic immunological adaption?

[Fangs]

here is some good bushmen info

What Did the Bushmen Actually Eat?

always remember one thing. that lifestyle will never be a western lifestyle in any form. Nothing about a true bushmen’s lifestyle equals ours in the way of exertion to obtain food, environmental influences along with life conveniences and more.

when mentioning this lifestyle we must truly get the true gist of it all. Is 30% carbs in this lifestyle WAY too much. Heck no it isn’t and won’t ever be. So keep perspective on what we do refer and take note of and learn from etc.

just a general statement LOL just chatting bushmen and lifestyle and more

[atomicspacebunny]

when mentioning this lifestyle we must truly get the true gist of it all. Is 30% carbs in this lifestyle WAY too much. Heck no it isn’t and won’t ever be. So keep perspective on what we do refer and take note of and learn from etc.

Some nice roots (tubers; resistant starch) for water…and also have some more on the forum of bush-women baking sweet potatoes (tubers) in the ground to eat:

Kalahari bushman drinking water by squeezing root fibers that are rich in water, dry season, Central Kalahari Desert, Botswana

link