Weightlifting Simple Qs

(PJ) #1

Some Q’s I’ve had for eons and never had anybody to ask and didn’t want to look like an idiot in public. I’ve given up worrying about the latter here 'cause I really want to know. :slight_smile:

I’m a novice here (starting again after many, many years off and whole-body atrophy due to being bedridden for years). My weight is greatly lipedemic so I’m oddly limber for my size (~350# at the moment), just weak. It took me eons just to learn to walk again since I began probably ~550# after heart valve surgery.

I can barely squat with no weight let alone a bar without falling on my ass as my weight is so unevently distributed toward the back (and even unweighted, am lucky to stand up again as my weight is so high and muscle so low, if I do a full squat). I can do ONE ass to grass unweighted squat now… well, on good days. :slight_smile:

  1. When tracking / referencing my workouts, is the standard to use solely the weight added to the bar, or include the weight of the bar in it?

  2. If at a low added-to-bar-weight, I can barely do two reps, but I don’t have a very ‘gradient’ option in weight plates, should I just do this until I can do more, or drop the weight to something I can do a lot of? I think working to near-failure seems like it’d be more appropriate, the research I’ve seen seems to suggest this is a bigger deal for untrained than well trained lifters, but I thought I’d ask for opinions.

  3. If my odd-and-huge shape makes it damn difficult to see my ‘true’ form in the mirror (AS IF I can really see precisely where my spine is from the side, or the degree my femur is at from any angle), should I skip the primary (deadlift & squat) moves until I can be sure I’m doing a proper-form version, or do pitiful half-forms instead?

  4. Would using my t-Bar (landmine) for whatever % of deadlift (or romanian) or squat I can do help with form? I don’t know if this makes it better or worse.

  5. On kettlebells, is it better to use a heavier bell that I can only do a fairly low count of two-hand simple swings on to full horizontal, or something lighter that I can do a lot more but challenges my cardio more than my muscle? (Like the plates, my available options are kind of far between, weight-wise.)

Well that’s a few for now. Greatly appreciate any input from experienced lifters here.

PJ

(Troy) #2

Great Questions
I don’t have all the answers

FOR ME, I try now just work on form first
No weights, just body weight ( for squats )
Pull ups, chin ups and dips

Way Too many years of just Gym-ing up!
Doing it all wrong

Stretching, Posture, form, stability and corrective exercise these days

I just go on YouTube for some videos
Stand in front of a mirror at home or at the gym on the class room w all the mirrors

Works for me.

I am no expert
Just enjoying thiS WOE+ Fitness😄

Good Luck👍

(Robert C) #3

You should always use the total.
Sometimes you will not have access to a women’s bar so, if you use total weight, you’ll always be accurate.
Also, there are the small bars that come with non-standard bars and weights permanently attached to the end - again, their total weight is what is shown on the side.

(Robert C) #4

I have heard it is best not to do things like squat and deadlift unless you are using proper form.
The reason given is that you do not want to create a bad “recruitment pattern”.
If you are large and eventually want to “lift heavy”, it may be best to stay away from them until you can see (and a personal trainer can see) what is going on.
Using just bodyweight squats as comfortably as possible is probably best for a while.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

Happy birthday!

Ted Naiman claims that it is important to lift heavy and to failure, if you want to grow muscles. So he votes for heavier weight and fewer reps. I am not qualified to say whether that’s true or not. I’ve also seen on these forums that cardio is worthless for someone on keto, but I’ve never been moved to find out why. To paraphrase something I read once, I get enough exercise leaping to conclusions, lol! :grin::grin:

(Robert C) #6

Yes and Yes

Just going heavy will not build your “engine” (cardio) much and just going light will not help much with strength (you’ll run out of “engine” before you work the muscle hard enough to force a strength increase adaptation).

There are any number of levels for this - think of a weekly pattern - 2 heavy days a week, 2 medium and then 3 light (if you want to do this daily).
You may do 3 sets of 10 swings of the heaviest weight you normally use (and feel a little pain).
The next day you could swing a very light bell for 10 minutes (pretty much an “active recovery” day - focusing form and cardio instead of counting at all).
The next day it could be 5 sets of 20 at a moderate weight.
etc. etc. etc.

That schedule is aggressive starting out - maybe 1 hard day, 1 medium day and a couple of very light days for 10 minutes and then build. If you don’t go to the gym each day - buy one light bell to do the 10 (or more) minute sessions at home.

If you have a watch to measure heart rate - you should see numbers drop for all the exercise levels.

This is true to build muscle.
Fortunately, bells can also be used to induce a sustained higher heart rate.
It can be especially helpful for people that cannot just go run a couple of miles but need worry about cardiovascular health.

#7

If I were to start from the position you describe, I wouldn’t be doing squats or dead-lifts. Improper form on both those types of movement can put stresses of well over 1,000 lbs on your low back, knees, and injury will put you back before the starting point. Never underestimate the benefits of just walking. You can use machines for quads and hamstrings, after regaining some flexibility, for added safety. And keep walking. Overweight people can build a lot of strength just carrying their extra body weight. I know this from experience.

(Joey) #8

@RightNOW I think @golfpsycho above has given you an important perspective to keep in mind. Given your body weight and underdeveloped muscle groups, you have enough gravity already working resistance - joint and connective tissue damage should remain a high concern.

I would recommend that you shelve the idea of weight training (even limited bodyweight training) for the time being. Instead, I would recommend flexibility, stretching, and related activities (yes, walking, laying on the floor and extending limbs, knee-touching, reaching overhead, etc.)

Limbering up will help you gain core strength and bring musculature surrounding joints back into play. When you can see meaningful progress on your ability to comfortably flex and move yourself around with control and confidence, it would be time to begin incorporating some very light calisthenics, carefully controlled bodyweight maneuvers, and other resistance oriented exercises.

Meanwhile, the more cardio you can comfortably work in (e.g., walking is perfect), the better.

Best wishes and please keep us posted on your progress.

(April Harkness) #9

You have rc’d alot of great answers. And not sure what more i can add…except …take it slow. I agree with the above about mastering your bodyweight. Learn good movement patterns first before going to a barbell or even kettlebells…and when you do…please stay away from the school of google…so much bad info out there. Get a personal trainer. Of course i know plenty of personal trainers who i see that make me cringe. Just do your due diligence and spend time researching the experience of a pt just as you would a doctor…in the meantime just learn good movement patterns.

#10

Well, keep in mind that at your physical weight of 350 pounds (if I read that correctly), you are already lifting weights through mundane movement every single time you get up from sitting, and every single time you consciously lower yourself down, and during each and every step you take (while hopefully contracting your transverse muscle/pulling the belly button into the spine with every step you take and movement you make). Obese and morbidly obese folks have a much higher risk of injury from taking up new exercise or weightlifting before having lightened their daily bodyweight load and gotten down to simply the “overweight” category of waist measurement and waist-to-height ratio, etc.

Cornerstone keto researchers Drs Phinney & Volek emphasize that obese folks have solid lower body muscles already and should first focus on losing enough excess weight before doing additional weightlifting, so as to prevent bad injuries to joints, etc. Same goes with other “exercise” - in order for it to be safe and enjoyable, a certain amount of poundage needs to be lost - otherwise can stress the body in a bad way or cause more harm - which is the opposite of the goal, etc.

LCHF/keto personal trainer Fred Hahn & LCHF physician Michael Eades MD, in Eades’ blog comments somewhere, have talked about how upwards of 99% of body recomposition restoration of lean mass is through nutrient dense LCHF/keto. Strength training in their view is a potent 1% leverage, and esp great for enhanced hormonal healing and/or bodybuilding in emaciated elders - but in no way is it essential for gaining most of the benefits of LCHF/keto, esp for the obese who need to avoid injury (and the side effects of injuries) at all cost.

However, if you get an endorphin boost from using safe gym machines conservatively - that boost/fun can enhance your outlook, which can be helpful. The challenge though is that the body has a lot of internal/organ healing to do in its natural keto fat loss that may be sabotaged by most kinds of premature formal exercise/training.

Fred Hahn’s Slow Burn approach (an evolution of Super Slow weight lifting, of which he was a master teacher) aims for 3-4 well-completed reps, done slow (as in, 3 seconds to load the muscle and move one inch, then 7 counts to the completion, then another 3 second transition load, then 7 counts down). Ideally you shouldn’t have it in you to do another full slow rep (and if you’re using free weights, err on the side of caution in order to prevent injury from fatigued muscles dropping a weight on your foot, etc). If you’re only getting 2 slow reps, I’d def suggest you decrease the weight so that you can do 3 within 90-100 seconds, then give yourself 30-60 secs to transition to the next machine, and so on. A tricky thing about gyms is if you have to wait for a machine, it detracts from the metabolic intensity of keeping a brisk pace in a good slow burn routine. :rofl: Aiming for metabolic intensity is the slow burn key - and once you’re familiar with your workout routine, it only takes about a half hour every 5-7 days - and you can do w/ a good dumbells set at home for many moons until having to switch to a gym to have access to higher weights challenges.

But again, obese folks who simply move around each day and aspire to be less sedentary with everyday activities are doing PLENTY of weightlifting. It just takes one bad injury from poor form during weightlifting or a pothole during walking or jogging or bicycling to set people back to ground zero or worse. Water exercise classes on the other hand, are wonderfully safe for at-risk obese folks - and a great preparation for future increased physical fitness and who knows, even surfing someday :surfing_woman:t5: (I’ve only enjoyed simple boogie boarding in shallow shark-free surf and never officially surfed but I do admire the young Hawaiian champ Makani Adric).

(Bob M) #11

You can also just do body weight exercises. For instance, go up to a wall and try to do a pushup against it. To get harder, go to set of stairs (assuming you have those in your house), and try pushups there. If you have anything between the floor and stairs, try that (I use a bench at the gym). Finally, you can try those on the floor.

You can also just do body squats, etc. Although I go to the gym, I just bought body weight exercise straps for the home. I’ll use these too.

I’ve been lifting so long that I have basically perfect form, but even I no longer do squats. I find my back and knees can’t take them. I do Romanian deadlifts, though, but even those, you can start out with light weights and get the form down.

I’ve tried kettle bells, and if I did not have a torn rotator cuff, I think they would be great. With an injured shoulder, though, they can be problematic. This is not a big deal, as many other exercises are like that too.

So, I would find what works for you, allows you to do perfect form, and is relatively easy to start. Also, if you can only go about 3/4 or 1/2 way down in any exercise, don’t worry about it. I do flyes and presses on machines, and I usually only do 3/4 reps, to avoid an area that puts the most pressure on my shoulder.

#12

PJ, I have an Exercise Science degree and have been coaching strength and conditioning for a while. Just been out of it due to multiple injuries.

Q 1 - as somebody said above write down what the total weight is including the bar. Different bars may be different weights, etc.

Q 2 - I will suggest starting at low intensity(light weight) and high repetitions. Imagine a pyramid with the big, wide base on bottom and getting smaller going up. Now imagine the pyramid flipped upside down trying to balance on the tip top. Building a good base with 3 sets of 12-15 quality reps will help you on down the line. It will help building your endurance and work capacity.

Q 3 - poor form is a no-no. Keep your heels on the ground, sit back with your hips, back straight, chest up so you can read what’s on your shirt. You can grab a vertical corner of a sturdy squat rack or similar and hold on to that to help you get low enough, I say the bend of your hip at your waistline just below parallel of your quad. You could put a dumbbell on the next step up on a set of stairs and “deadlift” it up to the next step. This will reduce the range but it will help you with lower body exercises.

Q 4 - to keep you from hurting yourself, or anybody that’s ever lifted, it really is important to have good form. I’d suggest maybe using a bench/box/plates stacked up and squat with it behind you. When you touch it, go up. You want the stack to be sturdy and not rock when you apply force to it. You also want it to be set up higher than you will get at parallel. As your form gets better you can remove some height, just two or three inches at a time.

Q 5 - I say build a good base like I suggested for your weights. That way if you get tired and use bad form you’ll be less likely to get injured.

Your weight loss so far has been awesome, be careful on your form, I’d hate to hear you got hurt and it affect you more than needing some Advil for a day or two. Keep up the good work, I hope I helped.

(Bob M) #13

Tyler is correct. I can’t tell you how many people (mainly men) I see lifting weights with poor form, typically using too heavy of a weight. If you find yourself moving your body to get weights up, you’re probably doing it wrong or with too much weight. If you’re jerking, you’re probably doing it wrong or with too much weight.

Another pointer: slower is better than faster.

#14

Yea, younger athletes want to see how much weight they can do but will end up using poor form, not going through the full range of motion, or it will crush them.

It’s an ego thing.

If you’re using poor form take weight off so you can do it right. You will end up being able to use correct form to lift that heavier weight in no time.

(PJ) #15

I’m listening. Thanks so much for the input. I will be back in a few days with more response. Thanks again.

(KetoQ) #16

Hi PJ –

I read through this thread and given the description of your situation as well as the advice of others, its probably a good course of action to start walking as well as bodyweight exercises.

I mention this because I started a Bodyweight Squat Challenge on this forum last November, here’s the link. https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/bodyweight-squat-challenge/66646/197

I’ve done over 44,000 going into this month, and have really developed strength in my legs. I don’t do weighted squats because my knees bother me, although I do some weighted leg presses and leg raises, high reps at low weight.

The great thing about bodyweight squats, you don’t need to buy a gym membership and can do them in the privacy of your own home. You also don’t have to do ass to grass to get a benefit. Go down as far as you feel comfortable. Check out the link, I’ve also included some videos of various kinds of bodyweight squats you can do that may be just right for your individual situation.

I see you’re doing kettlebells. I love them. If you enjoy KB, then do them. But I’d advise lower weight, higher reps as you start out.

Good luck,
Q

(Troy Mitchell) #17

This is the advice I am currently following. I usually start with a 10 minute walk, then do a circuit on the machines with moderate weight one set each. Then I go to the battle ropes and wrap up with a ten minute walk. I feel I need to condition my muscles before I get really serious about it. I am just trying to build my routine for now.