I have been reading a lot on several ZC forums on Facebook, and many are quite strict about their approach, (not a criticism just an observation…) advocating eating meat only and only drinking water. Coffee, dairy, and eggs are discouraged for the most part. I have been eating ZC for the past three weeks and find it very satiating for the most part, with better digestion and mental clarity than I’ve had on keto. Also the ability of ZC to control the craving for sweets is superior. On keto I will eat a huge amount of food and still find myself wanting tons of “keto friendly” foods after the fact, like macadamia nuts and Lily’s chocolate. But on ZC I have no such issue wanting these foods. However, I am finding that there are many people on these ZC forums that are reporting significant weight gain and being told that it’s ok because their body is healing and they should stay the course. But I can’t help but find this upsetting because these people obviously do not want to gain weight and are being dismissed by “veterans” on the sites who give the advice that their body is healing and they need to give ZC more time. It seems like there is a disproportionate number of people who experience weight gain on ZC versus keto. Why would this be? I would imagine that by replacing the twenty grams or so of carbs on keto with protein would promote weight loss. I am trying to understand the science behind this!
Weight loss in keto vs ZC
I think there is a slight misconception with eating an unlimited amount of Meat. At some point CICO still comes into play.
I think Keto is a great primer to zero carb. Why people who are getting less than 5% of their calories from carbs think dropping those worthless calories out is insane, boggles me.
What are typical macros on ZC ?
Wouldn’t protein intake be too high, and you just convert that to glucose ?
Protein does raise insulin, albeit half as much as carbs.
@VLC.MD “excess” protein is not necessarily or immediately converted into glucose. There seems to be a different mechanism or response to eating higher amounts of protein on ZC than to moderate protein on keto. And yes, in both of these situations individual response and physiology will affect the outcome of either diet. This protein issue confounds me, with many low carb physicians and scientists saying higher amounts of protein can cause cancer (Dr Rosedale) and others saying that we do not get enough protein and eating more will lead to better health, especially into old age (Peter Ballerstedt), who also points out that our bodies will send us hunger signals to try and get us to eat protein until our need for it is met and that we underestimate the amount we need. I have found this to be true, as I mentioned. I would eat a large keto meal with moderate amounts of protein and plenty of fat, only to find myself ravenous still and trying to ease my hunger with fat, when ZC results in a much higher level of satiety without the urge to keep looking for more food after I have eaten a meal. So isn’t there something to this as well? If eating fatty meat increases satiety and there is indeed some degree of CICO going on when it comes to weight gain, wouldn’t it make sense that ZC would be superior to keto in terms of how much food it takes to fell satisfied? The macros for people on ZC vary depending on how fatty the meat is they are eating, I read one account of a man who lowered his fatty meat intake while doing ZC upper the lean protein and he lost weight. I’ll link to that blog below as well as the article from Amy Berger I posted earlier about why protein isn’t necessarily converted into glucose.
I am a zero carb gainer (3.5 months, size 4/6 to size 8/10, ~15lbs up). After a brutal 3 week adaptation period, I feel much better on zero carb than keto (1.5 years). My period returned and is regular after being absent for more than a year (PCOS). My hair stopped falling out and my seasonal allergies cleared. I don’t crave carbs anymore and don’t feel the threat of a binge episode. My ability to put up with life’s ups and downs has improved. Bowel movements are surprisingly regular and perfect, but smaller. I think my calorie deficit on keto might have been too steep for too long. That may be the reason for hair loss, period loss, the occasional jar of almond butter (binge). The weight gain is currently making me crazy. I will try to increase fat (slather on butter or ghee) and increase the time between meals to see if that helps (thank you MelTar). I will give it a few more months to see if the vets are right! Fingers crossed. Maybe the dudes can bring on an expert to help troubleshoot zero carb, or explain the science why some of us (typically older, IR, women) gain.
@AnnieO thank you for sharing!! This is really helpful , it really confounds me why people would gain on ZC, but not being properly nourished maybe one of the reasons. On keto, we eat nutrient dense foods sure, but much of the energy we get comes from fat. Fat in and of itself is relatively nutrient replete whereas protein is muc more nutrient dense. One other thing I have been thinking about is the role of ketones in ZC. I know that those doing ZC are not encouraged to measure ketones, though I assume we would be in low levels of ketosis. I believe @amber has discussed this. My question is, how much of our energy on ZC comes from ketones vs other substrate? Are we mainly utilizing fatty acids but not necessarily ketones? How much gluconeogenisis is happening and thus how much glucose are we utilizing? Things get very cloudy when you move from looking at keto vs ZC, because the increase in protein has a less direct effect on energy utilization than an increase in carbs would. I don’t measure my blood ketones, but part of me thinks I should just to see what is happening with my levels. When I was doing keto, which I’ve done on and off for three years (with two breaks during which I had to gain weight due to anorexia) I would rarely be higher than 1.0 for blood ketones, though I was engaging in high levels of exercise and not eating enough (which I didn’t know at the time). I wonder what would have happened had I gone ZC to try and regain weight when i was underweight rather than eating many thousands of calories a day of processed foods as I was instructed to do by my eating disorder recovery coach. So far on ZC I seem to have lost some weight, which I judge by how my clothes fit, since I don’t weigh myself regularly. But there are so many questions about this way of eating that are unanswered and that I am incredibly curious about!
When I’m eating only meat I naturally eat LESS cals than regular keto. It seems far easier to OD on stuff like cheese and nuts than slabs of meat.
I meant, there is a different physiological reaction to eating higher amounts of protein on ZC than eating either higher amounts of protein or carbs on keto. So for example, one might be able to eat 120 grams of protein on ZC without negatively impacting glucose or energy substrate but only 80 grams on keto while also eating 20 grams of carbs. And what is the difference in the insulin response? Does someone who is metabolically healthy and eats 120 grams of protein (or more) on ZC have a lower insulin response than if they were to eat 20 g of carbs and 80 g of protein on keto?
I definitely eat eggs as well, but usually only 4 or so. I can easily come in well under 1500 cals in meat and eggs while not desiring to eat for most of the day. Whereas give me a can of blue diamond habanero BBQ almonds and I will kill that in a single sitting, just as a snack.
Or if you cut them out completely, since they are a binge trigger, you’ll stop craving them after some time and optimally leave them out for good.
@Dread1840 YES! I no longer binge eat macadamia nuts. That is incredibly liberating.
The potato diet works for awhile too. If a person’s insulin is high then they do something that lowers it, they will lose weight. They will plateau. Then what? Longer periods of zero insulin…fasting.
I gained weight the first time I did ZC. My theory is that I gained because my body was used to its 1350 calories a day and eating 5-6 meals a day. Then suddenly on ZC I was eating meat until “Thanksgiving full” (which is advocated on a particular ZC Facebook page), every time my well - trained ghrelin told me I was hungry. Needless to say I was eating over twice as many calories per day than before I started ZC. I gained 24 pounds and 4 pants sizes in 18 weeks. They kept telling me to stick with it, that my body was healing which was hogwash. Well, now I’m eating ZC again and eating once or twice a day, until I’m satiated. I eat about half the calories I did the first time I did ZC. I keep my protein moderate and fat high. And guess what? I’ve lost 16-18 pounds in 8 months. My health is better than ever this second time around.
(For the sake of full disclosure, I do have dill pickle relish or a tablespoon of salsa every once in a while).