Video: An Open Debate on Fruit Sugar

#21

I’m not sure how he’s separating the fructose from the glucose and sucrose in his fruit?

Plus, it seems some cancers (like colon cancer) can adapt to fructose once it spreads to the liver.

(Jeanne Wagner) #22

Well he talks about galactose too… which I’ve never heard of. Again I’m not scientifically educated about health and nutrition. He claims the simple carbon-based sugars are the best for the body and necessary for life - since we are carbon-based life forms.

It just all seemed more ‘common sense’ and emotional than truly scientific, but because he threw out a lot of scientific information, this is why I wanted someone similarly trained to be able to debate it.

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#23

You know what else contains plenty of carbon?

FAAAATT !

It’s how us carbon-based life forms store carbon away for later. All that sugar-carbon gets transferred to fat-carbon for long term storage and future use.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

You’ve certainly heard of lactose, and lactose is a glucose molecule bonded to a galactose molecule. The root derivation of both lact- and galact- is the Greek word for milk (“galaxy” is derived from the Greek for “Milky Way”).

A bit of organic chemistry: Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen are the atoms found in all organic molecules. Proteins also include Nitrogen, so the acronym for organic chemistry is CHON. The characteristics that make a molecule a sugar or a fat consist basically in the arrangement of the carbon molecules and the presence and position of hydroxyl groups (OH). The number of double bonds between carbon atoms determines whether a fat is saturated, monounsaturated, or polyunsaturated. All forms of sugar are combinations of glucose, fructose, and galactose, and all starches are chains of glucose molecules, arranged in different ways.

#25

I didn’t watch the videos - but I have noticed that there is often a lack of nuanced understanding about fruit in the keto crowd, regardless of what is actually contained within the menu plans of key keto diets (from the New Atkins, and Protein Power).

This week and last - I’ve been enjoying the small ripe (but still tart) peaches from a peach tree in my background - feeling so grateful for the great cosmic life cycle and bees that brought them forth from the blossoms to enliven my life! I either let them ripen a bit in the window, or saute them as-is in butter and spices to bring out more sweetness then eat the little saute with cheese.

There’s a huge difference between fibrous fruits and puddingny fruits (like cherimoya or ripe bananas) in the degree the fruit sugar is sequestered or not. With lots of fiber, most of the fructose isn’t metabolized until it reaches the lower gut! There’s also a difference between eating seasonally and eating canned sweetened peaches in winter!

The HFCS researcher Dr. Lustig has explained that all pretty well - and encourages regard for fibrous whole fruit like apples or pears which not only has valuable anti-oxidants, but also the cleansing wonders of fibrous pectin. All of these bioactive ingredients are much touted for midlife women by keto-nutritionist Louise Gittleman PhD and keto physician obgyn Anna Cabeca MD, who urge the importance of fresh raw fruits and raw & cooked veg for detoxification and alkalinization, which is critical for a happy menopause and glandular functional health. Room temperature fruit or lightly sauteed w/ spices and eaten with a protein, can be quite a luscious and joyful way to live a little!

Also, there’s a huge difference in people’s metabolic status. Someone relatively new to LCHF/keto or has a tendency to binge may do well to avoid all fruit until they feel 100% fat-adapted.

Phinney & Volek as well as the Drs. Eades allow for moderate portions of fruit in their menu plans past induction - and it’s worked for their non-bingeing clinical patients. In the New Atkins book by Phinney & Volek & Westman, berries are introduced after Induction for the Ongoing Weight Loss period - and they allow tomatoes (a low fructose fruit) during induction. They also recognize that cultural cuisines that include, say, tropical fruits like mango/papaya can be accomodated in modest amounts later in Pre-Maintenance and Maintenance, where you’ll find a good amount of fruit flex, within low-carb parameters and as part of a meal rather than a standalone snack.

I think the key is to eat fresh fibrous fruit sparingly (one a day max) and always WITH protein to further slow down the fructose process (as recommended by the LCHF paleoveda physician Akil Palanisamy who differs from the conventional ayurveda mandate to eat fruit separate from meals pointing out that protein is needed to reduce the insulin spike). I’ve experimented and found I definitely feel better with fruit accompanied by protein - and animal protein in particular. Though I love the taste of almond/pecan butter, it’s nowhere near as satiating.

Examples of protein that go well with apples or pears or peaches:

  • Basic French/Italian style: apple/pear/berries w/ 2-4oz sliced cheese or soft goat chevre
  • Phinney & Volek’s Bleu Cheese dressing mixed with a 1/2 cup of cottage cheese is very very tasty w/ pears imho
  • sauteed apple/pear in spices made into a pancake w/eggs, cream cheese, coconut flour, and perhaps some Lakanto syrup

In my experience, fibrous fruit refreshes my soul and delights my mental outlook. I try to eat one serving of berries or an apple/pear/peach - along with a protein serving - many days a week. And my recomposition/firm up as a non-obese gal (via measurements and slow shrinking belly) continues onwards, even as a midlife female. :green_apple: :cheese: :pear: :cheese:

(Jeanne Wagner) #26

hahaha Thanks @carolT!!

(Jeanne Wagner) #27

Thank you @SlowBurnMary! I am about to hit 50 in a few months, and I certainly enjoy fruit like the next person - they really play to my sweet tooth. Although I’m certainly not specifically trying to look for ways to add fruit back into my diet, the thought of having a low glycemic index fruit every now and them is nice. I’ve heard Dr. Eades and Phinney speak before but I have not yet read any of their books. I need to add more to my library. I need to learn more about it. I was slowly but steadily losing weight a while back (last year) but since have slowed, stopped, and started gaining again. I never know if I should be eating more, or eating less.

(Jeanne Wagner) #28

That’s fascinating!!

And thanks for the chemistry lesson. :smile:

#29

I think this is pretty true for BS issues in general–fruit, sweets, bread, whatever. I happen to be one of those people that’s fairly metabolically healthy (just fat) and can tolerate a reasonable amount of the stuff. (And by “reasonable,” I mean Paleo levels of carbs, not SAD). But if you have metabolic issues, then you can’t.

The planation owners also probably got more food and less exercise, while the slaves got limited food and kept their insulin low by working hard all day.

When I want to eat an apple, I almost always cut it up and eat it with some PB or cheese. Eating something with fat and protein slows the sugar absorption some and is actually satisfying. And I usually just eat half an apple. I also like to make smoothies with some berries or a couple of cubes of frozen canned pumpkin. Or sometimes I eat some berries for dessert and pour some HWC over.

As someone who started VLC by reading Protein Power, I’ve never been afraid of eating fruit as long as I kept within my overall carb limits for the day. I eat a lot of things that people are told not to eat (like peanut butter). But that’s possible because I’m willing to measure, count and track. If you don’t want to do that, you need to rule out some foods entirely because they can be problematic in larger amounts.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #30

Ah, yes. Calories in, calories out. They ate less and moved more. I suspect the reality is far more complicated than that.

There’s a very interesting correlation between the consumption of refined foods and the “diseases of civilization,” going all the way back to classical antiquity. When refined sugar and white flour were so expensive that only the rich could afford them, diseases such as gout and diabetes were known as diseases of the rich. Once modern milling methods brought the cost of sugar and white flour down within the reach of the poor, the poor started exhibiting these diseases, as well as the rich. It’s food for thought, anyway.

#31

I didn’t actually say anything like that, did I? What I said and you quoted is that exercise–or in this case physical labor–lowers insulin, which would make a significant difference.

(Carole) #32

Look at Dr Morse and Dr Berg then choose your diet! Just saying!

(Jeanne Wagner) #33

I’ve listened to Dr. Berg and I liked a lot of what he was saying, but I think he’s still too lenient on carbs. In the end it doesn’t matter. We all have to find our special blend of food, exercise, and mental health.

My sneaking suspicion after the holidays have gone by is that I need to go carnivore. I love meat so this is not a problem. I also love seasonings, and salt makes it easier to eat more. I need to try to go ‘clean’ and see what happens.