Very Concerning Article Claiming Keto Diet Causing Afib in Rats and Humans

science

#41

My body does find it stressful but strangely I do not! Most days I have nothing but coffee before 5, often because I forget. I have no explanation but there are times when I have to start eating due to a family event or business dinner and I almost regret ending the fast on Day 3-5 (other times I am thrilled). Will be getting my shots soon and going back to the gym and fasting are at the top of my list.


#42

Best bread other than the real thing and pretty easy to make https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/the-keto-bread


(Edith) #43

No one realizes that humans lived without these things for most of our existence. They are the truly abnormal foods.


#44

Not even that. It is possible to make low carb donuts for a treat, if one is really donut-distressed.

I’m one who loves this WOE because of how wonderful the food is. Everything tastes better with butter!


#45

Thank you for sharing. It made me research about it, because I’ve been feeling weak and wondering if it’s depression, or something heart related.


(Sara Smiles001) #46

There is however a lot of science coming out about the link between keto diet and long term gut health. I did Atkins through out my entire 20s. Went off for a year and was diagnosed with celiac disease. Obviously I had the gene or I couldn’t have gotten adult onset celiac. However, they know adult onset is set off by an extreme change in gut bacteria. I am currently back on keto and super nervous about some of the effects I’m seeing… severe dehydration, extremely dark urine. Maybe because I have digestive issues keto is too hard on my body now? I’m sticking with it to see if things get better but I’ve always wondered if the extreme dieting caused the initial upset in my gut bacteria. I’m sure I’ll never know. :woman_shrugging:t3:


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #47

Think of it this way. When eating SAD the metabolism has to deal with wide swings of glucose, insulin and a number of other hormones. And it has to do so hour by hour all day every day. The higher the carb intake the moreso. This means a lot of less serious stuff/problems get overlooked or covered up until they get critical. Some people can eat SAD for decades before the pancreas or the liver or the heart or the ‘whatever’ finally breaks down and the underlying disease can’t be overlooked any longer.

So yes, indeed, keto changes matters greatly! For the better. Keto is a metabolic normalization process that uncovers whatever has been swept under the rug for years or decades while one’s metabolism coped with high carb intake and its consequences. If one has a lot of damage, then things can get dicey for awhile. But the good news is, without the overload of carbs and the ongoing necessity to deal with it, the metabolism can start repairing the damage it caused.

Please cite some so we can check it out. Thanks.


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #48

I’m sure you are aware of correlation vs causation.

Since dehydration and dark urine are not side effects of a low or even zero carb diet, then there is something else going on.

One of the things I would be concerned about if my urine was dark, would be blood in my urine…

> Dehydration occurs when you use or lose more fluid than you take in, and your body doesn’t have enough water and other fluids to carry out its normal functions. If you don’t replace lost fluids, you will get dehydrated.

Low carb eating is not one of the causes of dehydration.


(May the blessing of bacon be always with you) #49

Dr. Phinney mentions a couple of studies showing that β-hydroxybutyrate is just as good for the intestine as the butyrate produced by gut bacteria, possibly even better. Unfortunately, I did not write down the citations.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #50

There’s this:

… To be specific, we are not challenging fiber’s important role in colon health—along with an optimized microbiome—in the context of a diet whose combined total of carbohydrate and protein is high enough to suppress nutritional ketosis. However, cultural, historical, and now strong biochemical evidence indicates that many of the benefits of fiber fermentation in the colon can be replaced by the normal physiological production of BOHB by the liver during a well-formulated ketogenic diet.
[…]

Short-Chain Fatty Acids

Three SCFAs—acetate, propionate and butyrate—are produced in the intestinal lumen by bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber. SCFAs serve as energy substrates for the gut and perform other beneficial actions for gut and overall health. Butyrate is the most extensively-researched of the SCFAs and is implicated in many of the health-promoting effects associated with colonic fermentation of fiber. The SCFA butyrate also has some pretty potent anti-inflammatory properties that enhance the intestinal barrier, mucosal immune function⁴ and cellular energy metabolism⁵.

One of these powerful functions of butyrate is its action as a histone deacetylase (HDAC) inhibitor⁶. HDACs are enzymes that regulate specific genes (i.e., epigenetic regulation) of target cells, and inhibition of them by butyrate can help reduce unwanted cell growth and oxidative stress. And, for those of you familiar with our prior post about BOHB, you will recall that BOHB is also an HDAC inhibitor⁷. Both butyrate and BOHB bind to the same cell surface receptor in the colon, which means they can have similar tumor suppressing effects upon binding. This is likely one of the underlying mechanisms by which fiber intake is understood to contribute to a reduction in the incidence of colon cancer.


(Bob M) #51

If anything, keto helps with gut health. At least it did for me. It’s only when I eat certain plants that I get irritable bowel syndrome or the like, which I had terribly for a while. So, I avoid those plants.

Note I said “plants” not “meat”.


#52

Celiac can be silent. One of my kids was short and we took them to a growth specialist at 12 We have lots of short people in our family so we assumed it was hereditary. The doctor ordered a bunch of tests and on the last page we found Celiac! The kid had no prior problems and for their last gluten meal we did mac and cheese, again no problems. Now I have since read postings that say that once you are gluten free even if you could tolerate gluten before, you no longer can but it does not mean there is not damage happening, in a weird way I think the diet did you a favor (says the mom of a glutne free teenager who herself does not do well with wheat). Turned out my kid had the HLA 8 and HLA 2! One of my other kids has chosen to be GF because feels better that way


#53

Interesting points Sara and well worth heeding.

Dietary changes impact gut flora. There are plenty of anecdotes in these forums of changed food tolerances with changes in food.

An umbrella story is that people start keto and stick with it for a few months feeling the benefits. Then they hit an event, or overwhelming craving, or a reminiscence where they eat some food they once ‘loved’, and they feel terrible in the aftermath. They guess they can no longer tolerate that food. Which may be true. But the reaction may not be an intrinsic immune system response, which is understood to be the inflammation associated with eating a poorly tolerated food. The reaction may be, as you say, the sudden food change and its effect on the gut flora. That can occur with or without an immune response. If we have a mass bacterial die off, then bits of exploded bacteria and bacterial linings (lipopolysaccharides) can create all sorts of bowel upset.

And this:


(Denise) #54

I hope you are still watching this one @CFLBob because I have the same thing happening but the cardio that ordered those tests left town. No doctors remain in this area long, or they just visit on occasion. Not all the same things happening I should say. Only some afib, and the doc ordered the echo thing and the nuclear stress thing. I said heck with it and tried some natural remedies (known to help with afib). Now I am still having afib, and it seems stress related so called the replacement cardio and go next tuesday to see him 2 hours away, oh joy :frowning:

What I wanted to ask about is how bad is the echo test? I think I might panic having a tube in my throat clear into my stomach. Maybe they can sedate me because I just know I need to be calm for that. I don’t know about the stress test, but one of the tests is supposed be about 4 hours, omg!! :grimacing:


(Central Florida Bob ) #55

Just to be clear, the “echo” test - is that an echocardiogram? That’s very easy test. You lie on a padded bed and the technician (? I think she’s a tech, not a nurse) holds a plastic sender/receiver against your chest. She moves it around watches the images as she’s scanning you. I think the most I did was small changes in position, like maybe let her get at my left side a little bit. Very low stress, zero pain. I don’t recall even having to get my arms in weird positions.

Let me know if there are any other questions.


(Denise) #56

Yes Bob it’s echocardiogram and nuclear stress test I had googled or I mean searched here on ketogenic forums for echocardiogram and found your post so I really wanted to talk to you about it because I didn’t no if I could handle some kind of hose stuck down my throat into my stomach so I think you’re saying that the echo cardiogram is not done that way and how is the nuclear stress test done is that a 4-Hour thing


(Central Florida Bob ) #57

Neither sticks the hose down your throat (and you’re asleep through that, thank God).

My nuclear stress test was yesterday. It was 100% “hurry up and wait.” Of the four hours, there’s probably not even half an hour of actual testing.

First get IV set up and the radioactive die injected. 15 minutes?
Wait an hour. Drink a pint of water.
Go in for the first round of imaging.
Seven minutes later, do the treadmill test. Maybe 20-25 minutes all put together.
Wait an hour. Drink a pint of water.
Go in for the second round of imaging.
Five minutes later, done for the day. Go to checkout. Have a nice day.
I’ll have my results Tuesday.

If they have reason to think you can’t do the treadmill - arthritis or something - they give you a shot of adrenaline and you’ll be lying down for the test. My doc had me walk on the treadmill until I got to the top of my aerobic range (85% of 220 minus your age - 129 for me) and then continue walking at that pulse for 60 seconds. That makes most (all?) people short of breath but that lasts for about a minute.


(Denise) #58

I totally appreciate your answer reply Bob because that just sounds like some Hitler’s experience experiments and you know what I think I’ll just pass I’ll do the two tests that were ordered I mean the one test I’m not doing that nuclear BS I’m telling you these scientists doctors are mad just freaking mad scientists I’m not going to let them do that to me I just rather wait until I’m so sick I can’t tell anybody what to do or not to do and I’m not that sick I’d rather just take care of things the best I can on my own that’s really sick when I think about it really sick


(Central Florida Bob ) #59

Something I didn’t mention is that you’re supposed to fast for six hours before the test. Since my appointment was at 8AM, they said, “nothing to eat after 2AM” which made me say, “who eats between 2 and 8 in the morning?” Night shift workers? Since I’m used to doing 40-ish hour fasts at a moment’s notice, not eating in the morning would be completely unnoticeable except for no coffee. Water was OK and helps make getting a vein stuck easier.

For the imaging tests, the tech asked me to drink about half a cup of seltzer water, and offered me a choice of like five flavors, all of which sounded to probably be full of sugar. I asked if she had plain seltzer water, and she said no. When I said I avoid sugar she said she one that wasn’t sweet and it didn’t really taste sweet. As all of us keto people have learned, sometimes you just have to put up with it.

Why seltzer water in the first place? She said something about it puffing up my guts making the pictures easier to read. Oh Kay …

Something interesting came up, though. The cardiologist told me his formula shows that because of Afib, I have a 2% chance of getting a stroke in the next year. Then he said 1% comes from being between 65 and 75 and 1% comes from being a dude. So where does the Afib enter into that? My inner statistics nerd says that’s probably bull crap. Then he said the office is getting a machine that can do CAC testing so I may be getting one of those tests next year - I think he said the machine was set to be delivered in March.


#60

One of my kids had a regular stress test (I forget why but nothing serious). It was really very easy, he ran on a treadmill for a few minutes and they took some measurements. Really a no big deal test

It was in the Cardiologist’s office. He also had a halter test where he worse something for 24 hours and it was also no big deal and there was nothing wrong with him anyway. The test where they stick a tube down your throat is an endoscopy and as far as I know it is for stomach problems not heart but perhaps I simply have not heard about it. For those you are fully sedated for the 15 minutes it takes.