Tried everything to bring my insulin low enough. Help?

insulinresistance
keto
fasting
pcos
(Eleanor Lodge) #1

Hi all!

So I’ve been having a bit of a problem; I’m not losing weight and haven’t been since around July. I started keto at the beginning of May this year, and that was when I joined TFM and recieved amazing help there. However, we haven’t been able to crack why I’m not losing weight, as I should be. I’m 25, have PCOS, have been doing keto and extended fasts (sometimes up to 5 days), but I don’t lose anything, not even a pound. I started keto at 88kg and am now down to 80kg, which happened between May and July, but since then, nothing has shifted.
I will admit, I haven’t been perfect keto since September when I moved back home, but before that, I didnt cheat, I was rigid in how I ate, pretty much fat fasted most of the time, with 42 hour fasts 3 times a week, unless I chose to do a 5 day fast once a month. Even now, I am still keto most of the time, just not as perfect as I was before.
My line of thinking is this; I think my insulin still isn’t getting low enough, and when I fast for too long, my cortisol stresses out too much and stops fat loss. I am definitely fat adapted and do get into ketosis, but the weight stays on. We have looked into whether I have thyroid problems, and my throid has been okay from the tests my doctors were willing to do (and that was a job and a half to get them to do the basics.)
If fat fasting doesn’t work for me, but fasting also doesn’t, does anyone have any tips to get insulin through the floor?

(Polly) #2

Have you considered carnivore?

(Amy) #3

What medications, if any, do you take for the glucose levels and PCOS?

(Eleanor Lodge) #4

I tried carnivore and again, there wasn’t any effect :confused: I was only on it for a couple of weeks though. Wasn’t great for me mentally though

(Eleanor Lodge) #5

My doctors wont give me anything, I used to be on metformin but it had no effect so they took me off and wont put me back on. I do take 2000mg myo-inositol daily which is supposed to help insuline sensitivity and I have tried berberine in the past but that was like the metformin and had no effect.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #6

Dr. Stephen Phinney suggests to patients who feel stuck that the first thing to do is to lower carbohydrate intake even further, and if that doesn’t work, to add fat to their diet. Even if we are eating ketogenically, our body doesn’t like to shed its fat store when it thinks there is a famine going on, which is why the mantra is keep carbs low, eat moderate protein, and eat fat to satiety. Most people who eat to satisfy their hunger find that their appetite naturally sets itself at a level that allows both body fat and dietary fat to be metabolised.

Dr. Jason Fung’s great line is, “When we eat carbohydrate, we burn glucose. When we eat fat, we burn fat.”

(Eleanor Lodge) #7

Thanks Paul :slight_smile: Could you look at my macros and see if they are okay? I’m on 20g total carbs, 75g protein and 110g fat. Something I have noticed is that fat doesn’t make me feel full, I can literally eat tablespoons of coconut oil (I did it as an experiment) and I don’t feel full. Would you recommend that I up my protein?

(Todd Allen) #8

Losing 8 kg in 3 months was a very fast rate of weight loss. Probably a fair amount was water weight which you have been regaining. A scale is a crappy way to judge progress of body composition improvement. Take photos, use a tape measure, check how your clothes fit, body fat calipers, DEXA, track physical peformance such as speed, strength and endurance, … there are many ways to get a better picture of what is going on with your body.

(Eleanor Lodge) #9

Hi Todd,

I have been keeping measurements as well, and my measurements haven’t changed, even from when I lost the 8kg. I tend to retain 2-4kg of water, and the 80kg is me including the water retention :slight_smile:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

At 80 kg, and assuming your lean mass is about 70%, or 56 kg, then according to our guidelines, you want your protein to be in the range of 56-84 g/day. So that’s 224 to 336 g of meat, since most meats are 25% protein. If you are finding that adding fat alone is not satisfying, then you may need more protein, as the need for protein varies considerably from person to person. (Our guidelines are general, and you need to find what works best for you.)

As far as how much food you are eating during the day is concerned, 1300-1400 calories is starvation level intake. If you are eating this little on purpose, start eating protein and fat to satisfy your hunger, without regard to the amount of calories that represents. Even if you are keeping your carb intake under 20 g/day, your body will not part with its fat store if it thinks there is a famine going on. Instead, it will lower its metabolism to compensate for the reduced energy intake, which makes it all the harder to shed excess fat. To ramp up your metabolism, eat more.

Also make sure that the fat you eat is mostly saturated and monounsaturated. Polyunsaturated fats cause inflammation and metabolic damage, in the quantities recommended by government dietary advice. Switch to eating fatty cuts of meat, and cooking with butter/ghee, bacon grease, lard, or tallow, and avoid the industrial seed oils (cottonseed, safflower, soybean, corn, canola, etc.) because of their PUFA content. If you need to use an oil, stick to the fruit oils (avocado, coconut, and olive). Their PUFA content is much, much lower.

(Eleanor Lodge) #11

That’s amazing, thank you so much! Yeah, calorie wise I was eating around 1200 per eating day, simply because that’s how my macros would normally fall. I always cook with butter, beef fat, organic olive or coconut oil :slight_smile: I stay away from all the “vegetable” and seed oils.

(Edith) #12

42 hour fasts 3x/week plus a five day fast every month? That’s a lot of fasting! Your body is probably trying to hold onto every calorie it can because it thinks it’s starving.

Eating so little you are also not giving your body all the nutrients it needs to heal. If you have PCOS your body has healing to do. It may be giving healing preferential treatment over weight loss for now.

You don’t mention what you ate eating, but not all keto foods are created equal. Make sure you are eating meat and low carb veggies, no seed oils, no artificial sweeteners, and that everything you eat is as nutrient dense as possible: no fat just for fat’s sake.

There’s a thread on here started by someone who learned that the advice to eat more was the correct advice. He or she didn’t start losing weight until she upped her calories and healed her metabolism.

#13

Are you tracking what you eat with something like cronometer or carb manager?

(Eleanor Lodge) #14

Yeah, I track with carb manager :slight_smile:

#15

I used to have chronically elevated insulin. I fixed it and have lost 15lbs in the last month after a year+ long stall.

Do what I did a month ago. Google “what raises insulin”, “what lowers insulin”, “what improves insulin sensitivity”, “what supplements to improve metabolism”, “what supplements to lower insulin”, etc.

I cut out antihistamines, NSAIDS, caffeine, artificial sweeteners, alcohol, etc. I reduced the dosage of some of my meds that were raising my insulin. I started IF’ing and aim for zero carb. I added supplements like ginger and cinnamon for metabolism, and things like ashwagandha to help with stress. I take half a teaspoon, morning and night, in decaf green tea. Let me tell you, that ashwagandha works! My whole life, since childhood, I have cried when getting poked by a needle. I have a needle phobia. Yet, 3 weeks after taking ashwagandha I got poked TWICE (blood draw and flu shot, back to back) and I didn’t cry! I even told the nurse ahead of time that I was going to cry and that she should not make a big deal. Didn’t I feel silly afterwards when I didn’t cry! The nurse thought it was because she was so good at her job, and I let her think that, but I’m telling you it was the ashwagandha! Stress/anxiety raises your cortisol which raises insulin. Get any stress under control. Google “how do I reduce cortisol”.

Last thing, I’ve started meditating every night before bed for ten minutes. I turn the lights out, play a rain sounds track on Spotify and set a timer for ten minutes. When I’m done I nod right off to sleep. I sleep sooo good whereas I used to wake up a lot.

Good luck!

(Eleanor Lodge) #16

That’s what I was recommended by TFM, but I think it might be too much as well now :slight_smile: I have toned it back the past couple of months, only doing 16 hour fasts daily with the occasional 42.

Eating wise, I’m mostly fat fasting, so lots of eggs, bacon, pork belly, salmon, healthy oils such as butter, coconut, fat and olive oil but I do have spinach and cabbage (not loads of cabbage), and double cream for tea and coffee (again, not loads and only in my eating window. I don’t eat any form of sweetners, and I track what I eat :slight_smile:

(Eleanor Lodge) #17

That’s so good that you found what works for you! I have definitely done those searches a lot on google too XD
I have tried ashwaghanda in the past (I have had a very stresslife life, both work and home) and it unfortunately hasn’t helped. My kitchen is like a pharmacy honestly!
I do pray though, so that is my form of meditation :slight_smile: and rain sounds are so soothing

#18

Then you can see your carbs and the breakdown of them over a descent period of time, why would you think it’s your insulin? I wouldn’t worry about insulin, if you’re REALLY worried just get a fasting insulin test, they’re cheap enough but the key is something in your diet is off. Fasting screwed mine up huge, it slowed my BMR and make weight loss go from very hard to almost impossible. I wound up completely re-working my diet from the ground up. Are you working out? Are you eating crazy amounts of fat or caring about calories?

(Edith) #19

Something to think about:

Fat does not have a lot of vitamins and minerals. If you are eating 1200-1400 calories/day with say 70% of your calories from fat, you only have 350-420 calories a day to get in all the nutrients your body needs. Also, if you take in too much fat, your body does not need to use its own body fat for fuel. You may need to tweak things like protein and fat.

(Bob M) #20

I’d be careful with this. Jimmy Moore did a podcast and did both PSMF (protein sparing modified fast) and also very high fat (90+%). He HATED the PSMF (recommended by Ted Naiman), even though that supposedly uses your body fat. He also had issues (blood sugar issues) with the very high fat diet. His blood sugar actually went down in both of them. But his metabolism is a bit haywire.

And then, there’s this, where Siobhan Huggins ate a very high fat PKD and lost weight:

I have also tested a very high saturated fat diet and do get a marked lowering of hunger (as in I’m not hungry – at all – many hours after eating). But, I had to eat a TON of saturated fat, which is hard to do if you’re not eating starch (which absorbs sat fat).

So, I think statements like this don’t take into account the type of fats you are eating and may be physiologically incorrect or at least questionable.

I would encourage anyone to test a high saturated fat diet, using beef suet, cacao butter, etc. See what happens.

And there are many studies indicating that high protein causes more energy to be burnt. What does this mean? This means if you up your protein and lower your fat, you could lose weight, but it might have more to do with the increase in protein and NOT the decrease in fat.

Personally, I err on the side of more protein and less fat, but if I do eat fat, I try to eat more saturated fat, less MUFA and try to avoid PUFAs, even eating less pork, chicken, avocados, oils like olive, etc. Can’t always do that (chicken is cheap and tastes good), but try to.