This covid stuff is slippery

(Full Metal KETO AF) #21

Thanks for those links @ctviggen I keep hearing about all these meat packing plants have huge outbreaks happening. The first article said at least 18 plants have shut down and some people on the forum here have told me they are having trouble getting meat in the stores, mostly east coast folks. My question is why are there major outbreaks with hundreds of people in a plant getting COVID? What is it about meat packing plants? :cowboy_hat_face:

#22

Air conditioning?
Unmasked workers?
Casual workers, no sick pay?
Co-workers shedding before symptomatic, spreading infection?

(Ethan) #23

People work very close together in those plants for long hours, sharing the same locker rooms and prep facilities.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #24

@KetoRocks I’m absolutely sure those conditions are present in other places too.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #25

Very low rates of infection among grocery store workers. I read an account from a guy who does bookkeeping for a fairly large east coast grocery chain who sees all the data of whose out of work sick. Sorry I can’t give a link for it. They seem to me to be the most at risk people working as they’re exposed to hundreds of random people daily. Most people here weren’t wearing masks till very recently and ironically the people working in grocery stores around me were the last people to start wearing them. I remember being masked for weeks shopping and thinking why the heck aren’t these people masked while handling foods and serving people when half the customers are wearing masks? :cowboy_hat_face:

#26

This is about a small Australian plant but it might hold some clues for you. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/may/09/cedar-meats-cluster-why-abattoir-workers-are-on-the-coronavirus-frontline

(Windmill Tilter) #27

It’s a real thing! Here in upstate NY the meat section in my grocery store was shocking. There was literally nothing there in the steak section. Interestingly, there were some things left in the pork section. In the poultry section, only whole chickens and split breasts were available. My understanding is that they do this because the processing plants are short staffed, and this is more labor efficient.

(KCKO, KCFO) #28

Hope she doesn’t come down with it. And all it takes in a small town is one or two people to really spread it around.

Hope your friend is alright. That is why we are washing everything that gets delivered to us, we stopped going to stores early on. My lungs pick up everything that is around me if I haven’t vaccinated against it. So very high risk and we are both over 65, so that adds more risk.

I went into the first building besides our house today, my hairdresser was able to reopen and I really needed to go. She has an 80+ yr. old dad she normally cares for as well as her business. She went way beyond what the state required for her to reopen, she doesn’t want to take any chances and she and her husband are even living on different levels at home because he has an autoimmune issue.

“These are strange days in deed, most peculiar mama.” John Lennon

(ANNE ) #29

You are not alone @EZB, I bought hand santizer and extra supplies in February. I thought I was late to the preparing party! But I felt my freezer was a bit low on meat and stocked up in a timely manner. When you prepare early, you are preparing just in time!

(Diane Beebe) #30

Probably not…

(Mike) #31

Folks, get past the news reports, past hype, past fear, and get to the science. What do the statistics say? What people group, age group. condition group, etc is likely to die from this disease (or, better said, die from this disease because their condition (low immunity, etc) made them vulnerable.)

There once was a man with a red nose. He had children with red noses. He had grand children with red noses. In fact, all of his 20,000 descendants had red noses.

Along came a new strain of virus that killed 5% of his family. Many more were sick… very sick. News reports came out that showed videos of his family members in hospitals, on the brink of death. Doctors and nurses were filmed, telling their tale of the effects of this terrible virus.

In an effort to save the nation, the government put a lock down on everyone. Businesses were closed, churches were closed, schools were closed and government offices were closes. Only the “essential” could work. Then, the social distancing warnings came.

In an effort to keep people from dying people were advised to keep a safe distance away from each other. Get to close to someone in a grocery store and you would take the angry looks of those who didn’t want your germs. Reports came of police that would stop at homes, warning families to stop allowing their children to play with neighborhood children.

Some businesses flourished. Webcams were sold out in weeks as the lock-down sent workers to their computers to interact with other staff, customers, and prospects. Medical masks and hand sanitizer were off the store shelves in no time at all. Sign companies were running wide-open to produce “lobby closed but drive-thru is open” signs. Self-stick signs to remind customers that they should stay 6’ feet from the next person and signs directing the aisle traffic pattern were hot items!

Just as things looked like they could get no worse, someone suggested a solution based upon statistics and science.

A written statement from Mr. Follow-The-Stats-and-Science reads, "How about we change the quarantine to include only the red-nosed family? How about we do all that we can to keep them save since they sure seem vulnerable. How about they stay home. The businesses they work for should allow them to continue to work but from home. For those where the job would usually require them to be on-site, the business owners can keep the pay check flowing while their lock-down is in force. Based upon the fact that the incidence of anyone outside the red-nose family is exceptionally low and the fact that it is a healthy thing for the bodies of everyone else to build up an immunity to this new virus … doesn’t this seem the best course of action? "

In a final statement, he wrote, “Why do so much damage to those who are most likely NOT to get the virus? Why not do the best for those who ARE likely to get it?”

It was too late for the tide to change. The masses were already moving at a pace that would never listen to such wise words. They had been told by those in high-rank that millions upon millions would die and multiplied more would be infected. The media, medical community, state leaders, governments around the world… moving in the same directions. Sure, there were some that signaled a concern. But it was such a small minority.

“I am very healthy, have no medical concerns, am on no medications and even though I am only 24 years old,” one young college student said in a news interview, “it feels so good to wear a mask, keep 8 feet from anyone, talk to store clerks through Plexiglas shields, have church at home to protect others … I just feel so good about this.”

The country in which the red-nose family lived took on a huge financial burden… initially a 2-trillion-dollar one. It was absolutely needed, most said. “The COVID-19 virus isn’t going to stop us! We are strong! We can beat this.” But the workers must be provided for and isn’t that a role of the government?

So, what happens when businesses open up fully?

What happens when the infection and death rates rise again?

What happens when the government imposes, once again, a lock down on all citizens?

What happens when another new virus hits the scene?

This is what happens when we don’t look at the statistics and science! :frowning:

#32

Well that was a lengthy post and Im not totally sure what you’re trying to say but theres a lot of crossovers out there. I am a healthy, I think, 54 yr old and probably not too much at risk but I have family members that aren’t as healthy and an 84 yr old mother with lots of things wrong with her. What exactly are you suggesting people do?

(Mike) #33

I am suggesting that those with underlying health issues (diabetes, cancer, immunity-issues, etc) take every precaution. Others without any underlying health issues (that would give COVID-19 an advantage) should be allowed to go back to work. socialize in large groups, etc. Let the healthy build up an immunity to this new virus. New virus? What virus wasn’t once new? :slight_smile:

Carl and Richard pushed “the science” all the time …

#34

So thats exactly what I’m saying. Everybody has a crossover. Do I go out to work and mix with people and just avoid my mother and other sick/ill people? And what do you mean by underlying health issues? Is being overweight automatically one of those conditions or not? If everyone with heart/diabetes/autoimmune problems/metabolic issues etc etc stays isolated I think you’ll find that’s a large part of the population that stay indoors and away from the rest. Isn’t that pretty much called lockdown?

#35

I don’t have any answers by the way. I constantly change my mind as to what is the right thing to do but you cannot have 2 separate communities without an overlap somewhere.

(Mike) #36

Amanda, you are correct that it entails a lot of people. That’s because we have a health crisis in the USA. In an April 20th, 2020 email sent to her subscribers, Zoe Harcombe had this to say about risk factors:

"Understanding comorbidities, as underlying conditions are called, serves two main purposes: it helps us to understand how the virus works and it helps to understand who is most at risk and thus who most needs to be protected.

  • The evidence examined this week includes the earliest large study from China, the seminal Italian review, general US data, the first meta-analysis and a very recent article from NY City, which has tried to prioritize risk factors.

  • There is some consistency on sex – men are more likely to be hospitalized, but while Italy reported that 70% of those who died were men, the NY city study found that men were more likely to be hospitalized, but not more likely to have a critical outcome.

  • The data on smoking are inconsistent and surprising in some cases.

  • Age is a consistent risk factor, but the headlines are quite different when the data are examined more closely.

  • The comorbidities of heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), hypertension, and diabetes appear in data from China, Italy and the US. However, in the NY City paper, heart failure was the only one of these that remained a key risk factor after all risk factors were prioritised.

  • BMI was an independent risk factor in the US data. Before prioritization, a BMI >40 resulted in three times the likelihood of being hospitalized vs. a BMI <30. This did not translate into a greater risk of becoming critical at the basic level of analysis. However, when risk factors were prioritized, having a BMI of over 40 was the most serious characteristic beyond age. The risk remained for both hospitalization and becoming critical once hospitalized.

  • An ethnic risk factor was also evident from the data and this is now the subject of investigation in the UK.

  • We are currently protecting people with a number of conditions, but we are not protecting people with a BMI >40 and/or people emerging as having an ethnicity risk. Many such people are working on the front line at the moment and tragically succumbing to the virus – is it time to change our thinking on whom we need to most protect?"

(Mike) #37

Amanda, I was thinking something last night and wanted to get back with you. You know, when I was 262lbs I had a ton of health issues (high blood pressure, daily head aches, high triglycerides, higher than normal Hba1C, high inflammation, etc.) This was NOT the result of being overweight. ALL of these things were the result of me having a carbohydrate issue… my body was not processing my excess carbohydrates well.

I said all that to say that those in the Keto lifestyle who have everything going for them except that the weight is not quite where they are wanting (but improvements are continual) would likely not fit into a group that would be at risk for a COVID-19 caused death. I say this because the weight at that point is simply excess stored fuel. The low blood sugar, the low triglycerides, being in ketosis … the body is recovering OR is removed from what used to lower overall immunity strength.

I had scalp psoriasis (considered an auto-immune issue) for years. When I started the keto lifestyle, that decreased to the point where now I no longer take meds for it because it is no longer an issue.

Well … thanks for listening…

(KCKO, KCFO) #38

Because the ones who “think” they are not at risk go around without masks, don’t keep their distance, etc. Therefore the ones who at risk, are placed in harms way.( Can’t tell you how many reports of young, healthy people are getting the disease and just barely surviving.) Do you know for a fact your autoimmune system is bullet proof? How about that buddy you have to drink with often, is his? How about the person who “cleaned” the work space?
And if too many get it, the health care system can’t deal with the numbers.

Yes, all contagious diseases were new at one time, and PEOPLE and NATIONS feel the effects, the Black Plague comes to mind, which wiped out over a third of the population in Europe. Things changed dramatically, as they will for us. Hopefully, our science will help us keep the death tolls down.

Everyone needs to do their bit daily, physically distance, wear a mask when you’re out and about, wash your hands, face and glasses when you get home and changing your clothes is good too.

Who knows you might even save a life, possibly yours.

Thanks for the post from Zoe, I hadn’t seen that one yet.

#39

Yup, pretty much every industrial environment there is.

(Ideom) #40

This is an important thing that is not being focused on enough, IMO. Perhaps because it is seen as not politically correct to do so? I’m not sure how it’s being handled - diabetes is frequently mentioned as a co-morbidity, but is obesity itself? The data is pretty clear that it makes a big difference.