The Levers of Power (What to Measure, What to Control) to avoid stalling/stalls

(Kirk Wolak) #45

I have to be honest, I have a problem with too much pork being a negative for me.

I also have an issue with Chicken, I just don’t tolerate it too often, and cannot stand the lean breast.
(Unless Sous Vide, and cut into MAYO for a Chicken Salad)

#46

I just found this post. It is better than most lengthy books on the subject, in practical terms! :clap:t2: :clap:t2: :clap:t2:

(Ivy) #47

This was super nice and Im sorry that some dont get it

(Ivy) #48

Is this accurate for newbies trying to get fat adapted?

(Ivy) #49

How do I know which , high carb or low carb below the 20 gr, works best for me?

(Kirk Wolak) #50

Ivy, I like Dr. Eric Westman… Clinical Strength Keto.

He uses TOTAL Carbs, and 20g or less. Guess what, I still need to be < 10g if I am not fasting.

The Key point is that EVERY BODY is different. You have to understand their are Levers. And some levers work BETTER for you, than others. The best HINT I can give you… It’s the LEVER you LEAST want to be the key one… That IS PROBABLY the key one for you!

What are your current levels of carbs and ketones?
Are you measuring?
How is your glucose doing?

Celebrate NSV (non-scale victories) like sticking to your meal plan, and movement. Take your time… Love yourself along the way…

So, if your biggest fear is “how few carbs?”, then carbs will probably be your most powerful lever.
I was between: Just let me have XXX… And it was always XXX that created some issues. Be it net carbs, or Pork or Stevia or Seasonings. Ugghhh…

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #51

We recommend eating under 20 g of carbohydrate a day. Then eat a reasonable amount of protein, 1.0-1.5 g/kg of lean body mass/day, and add fat to satisfy your hunger. Have you tried doing this? What were your results?

(Kirk Wolak) #52

Trial and Error.
But from my perspective, it’s always best to GO LOW first. (Cut Once, Cut Deep).
then Every adjustment is an EASING of restrictions.

Here is the dilemma… How will you measure. Atkins made a HUGE mistake in having people up their carbs after the maintenance program (in my opinion), because it led to failures.

For example, if you are good for 5g/day. GO to 10g. And stay there for 2 weeks. Are you still doing well. Losing weight, in ketosis as deep, or did you stall… If all is good, go to 20g. But again, it takes a couple of weeks to see the TOTAL effect. Maybe even longer.

Many people can start at 20g and do fine. My buddy could do 50g/day and be in DEEP ketosis… Really peeved me! LOL Meanwhile, I would WATCH him eating, and get kicked out of ketosis…

You have to find what’s right for you. But you have to get the BASICS first.
If you are really new… I like the book: KETO CONTINUUM by Dr. Boz. It breaks it all down into easy to follow and an easy to understand continuum. And it explains how to get back on the wagon after an oops!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #53

Kirk’s advice is solid.

How much you have to restrict carbohydrate depends on how insulin-resistant you are. The greater the insulin-resistance, the more insulin that will be secreted in response to eating a given amount of carbohydrate, and the goal is to lower insulin below your threshold by restricting carbohydrate. The Dudes decided to advise people to eat less than 20 g/day, because that is a level that works well for most people. But some people are so insulin-resistant that they need to eat even less than that.

(Ivy) #54

Its hard to hang out with the dark mood that plays with a person in deep ketosis. I think this has been part of my experience with keto at least once in the past month. It is interesting. My goals are not deep ketosis, just all the health benefits as I have no health conditions. I dont know if Ill get back in that state.

(Kirk Wolak) #55

Ivy, I am not doctor. But the wording your post raises an important point.
Various parts of your body can be insulin resistant to a different level!

Your comment RESONATES with me… Because if I get too deep into ketosis, and my glucose goes into the 80s, I can’t think properly. I can’t program. Between 95 and 105 Glucose, I am fully functional, mentally!

My doctor put me on metformin to exaggerate this! To FORCE my brain to re-develop the pathways required to let my brain use less glucose. It kinda sucks. The first full night, I awoke with tachycardia! My CGM said my glucose dropped to like 45, but my blood stick was way higher (because I was awake, with tachycardia, LOL). This confirmed his suspicions.

Basically, the metformin lowered my glucose during my sleep. My brain said “Hey Liver, help me out”, my liver replied “No can do… Metformin”, my Brain then INSISTED, and went into Fight or Flight mode, waking me up.

The current operating theory is EXPLAINING why my CGM does NOT reflect my Serum Glucose, but DOES explain how I feel. (if my CGM reports really low (65), and my Serum is about 90), I am sleepy.

My body/muscles are completely Keto Adapted. So, they stop utilizing the glucose, and let my brain hog it all. My interstitial fluid (CGM monitors this), is low, because it’s being used as an alternative source for fueling my brain.

anyways, I share this with you, because the mood alteration you are feeling could be that your brain is NOT HAPPY running on ketones. You COULD have wired the happiness center with only glucose processing. The ketones are flowing by. Just the INVERSE of the Alzheimers patients whose brains light up, when ketones show up to save the day…

Try to get a CGM, and test your serum. Especially before and after the mood switch. I will bet your glucose is below your threshold, but your ketones are high. Compare this to being in ketosis, and adding external ketones to achieve the same level. You should NOT feel the dark mood.

Again, not a doctor. But what mine suggested was “You would want to address this. If Alzheimers is T3D… And your brain is REFUSING to use Ketones, or simply cannot use them well… Where does that end?”

Honestly, I was a YOUNG computer geek, fueled on 2L of Real Coca-Cola and Pizza. I’ve literally programmed for 36hrs straight, crash for 6-8, and back at it for 24 hours. Solving pretty complex problems. I did that kind of stuff a lot… Not realizing I had ADHD and I was abusing glucose/caffeine for years.

I cannot fathom the damage I may have done to my brain. But I would say from 13 on… I was severely GLUCOSE dependent to process information (my nickname in Highschool was The Sponge. I read every Computer manual, and still remember key sections, like 7-67 of systems and specs…). All driven via glucose.

Now, take that away, and I am mentally crippled. I can barely listen at 2x normal speed. I can do physical things, like walking a marathon fasted. But I can’t begin to develop complex algorithms.

I am experimenting now with metformin, and trying to maintain BOTH states. Lowered Serum Glucose, and efficient cerebral performance. But it is slow going. And my CGM is not helping, because my serum has to be tested, and when I start to focus DEEPLY, I forget to test. Sometimes for 3-5hrs (time flies in the zone… And being in the zone, is likely a much higher serum glucose level than I realize, I am using the drops on the CGM to HINT that this is happening)

Sorry for the novella… I think you just learned something about yourself, and you took the risk to share it… Journey On!

#56

It was fascinating, I never heard about such things before, still have no idea about CGM but got the gist I think.
How do you eat then to keep your mind in proper order?
I feel lucky mine doesn’t care (though you may still have gotten the better mind even if I am kind of pleased with mine ;)), it works with more and less and super low carbs just fine. No idea about my numbers as I never measured anything but I have times with various amount of carbs and it doesn’t seem to matter much to my brain. Fat always was my primary fuel source though.

(Kirk Wolak) #57

This becomes the question. I am sticking with carnivore. For me, it’s more a question of “how much fasting…” I don’t get into deep ketosis on carnivore. Only fasting does that. But fasting leads to me not being able to think as well… And since adding metformin, I find fasting even harder. I actually get hunger signals with 36hr and 48hr fasts. Trying to skip eating Sat/Sun has been almost impossible for me. [But the doctor said it could take 6-12 months to keto adapt to the next level on metformin]

#58

@CaptainKirk
hope you are doing well!! :100:

(Ivy) #59

So I hope Im right with what Im about to write:

I dont think my brain was happy running on ketones, and my brain was insulin resistant to a different level–or at least, parts of my body were. This led to a cheat meal, as I did not research this enough beforehand. I didnt know what was going on. It was deep ketosis.

The ketones are flowing by. I was flucose ddependent when my youth had inductions of glucose when my dad insisted I eat a candy bar pre-sports game. I’m ridiculous! My mom also fed me honeybuns in high school and tons of sugar drinks in grade school. Ridiculous. So it may be that I will take a long time on keto to get fat afapted or feel the fullest benefits at least.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #60

You ask/talk about this in another topic.

My response here is going to be much the same, and… are you on medication? ANY medication changes everything.

With respect to @CaptainKirk I must object that - sans medications and/or pathology - ketones, specifically β-hydroxybutyrate, are the preferred brain fuel. If your brain has access to β-hydroxybutyrate it will use it in preference to glucose. The more that’s available the more it will use.

That’s a good thing, too.

(Kirk Wolak) #61

Yes, I am openly admitting to a pathology here. It happens. And for my doctor, the proof was that I ended up with tachycardia as my body panicked while my glucose dropped because my brain was literally refusing to use the available ketones. (Now, we don’t know to what degree. I can function “normally” in some regards on ketones. But NOT with low serum glucose levels).

So, it IS a pathological case. And one that I was NOT AWARE of until we teased it out.

My next tests will involve PSMF approach to see if “any” fresh calories help the symptoms, or if it is literally requiring a certain Serum Glucose. I need a decent “Mental Test”. An average speed at sudoku, or the like…

Also, Michael, there are some brain functions that might REQUIRE glucose (ie, cannot be done with ketones). I remember Bret Scher or someone mentioning this, and saying “it’s a really small amount”… But it clearly implied 100% ketone utilization was not truly an option…

(Butter Withaspoon) #62

Not to mention that there will always be a blood glucose level, zero blood glucose is consistent with death. There are other cells that can ONLY use glucose (red blood cells for example).

There are a few studies and case reports now where giving ketones to people with dementia has a large effect of increased brain function almost immediately, so this suggests that the average person retains the ability to utilise ketones in the brain.

Adapting to lower glucose intake for someone cutting carbs is a roller coaster of blood glucose going too high, plummeting down low, ketones are probably going up and down too. It’s a bit of an uncomfortable mess until you get smooth glycemic control- then nothing feels better than this

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #63

The estimate for how much glucose the brain needs comes from the work of George Cahill on fasting, published in Starvation in Man in the 1960’s and considered definitive. Yet Benjamin Bikman has questioned whether the brain needs any glucose whatsoever. So apparently there is some question about the issue. If Bikman is right, then 100% ketone utilisation ought to be an option, but at the moment, the standard thinking sides with Cahill.

What we do know for sure is that the brain can utilise both glucose and ketones, that it needs insulin in order to be able to absorb glucose to metabolise, and that ketone metabolism can still function even when the brain’s glucose metabolism is damaged, which is why patients in the early stages of Alzheimer’s disease can show a distinct improvement when put on a ketogenic diet. (Researchers into Alzheimer’s disease are now calling it Type III diabetes, because it appears to be basically a condition of insulin-resistance of the brain.)

(Ivy) #64

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