The 'Give us this day our daily bread' thread - aka theology of keto


#6

Really simple and fast quick bread with flaxseed made here:

Skip the sesame seed. Cut up in cubes and you have the communion bread for the ritual.

The nice thing about this, too, is that it is much cheaper than almond four (nut flours tend to be quite expensive I find).

Hope this helps or gives an alternative?? Flaxseed is an ancient food used in biblical era/times I think.


(Dustin Cade) #7

when it comes to evidence vs conventional wisdom, evidence should always win… what is tradition if it doesn’t move us forward but holds us back?


(Barbara Greenwood) #8

I think you’re on to something there. What do you think he’d use today?

As an aside… when I was training, we were told in one class about coconut theology. In some Pacific island (can’t remember where, sorry), they do Communion with coconut meat and milk. They break open the coconut by impaling it on a spike, echoing the violence of the crucifixion.


(Barbara Greenwood) #9

Ooh, nice, thanks! I may have to experiment a bit though. It’s not bread for Communion I need so much as an alternative to make at Bread Church. The recipe I currently make for myself (almond flour, flax seed and psyllium husk based) makes a pretty good bread, but it’s quite a complex recipe.

Have you ever tried this flaxseed bread as a loaf?


#10

I have… find that it is a lot of “roughage” though.

I haven’t tried adding yeast to it to see what happens…you know what…I’m going to tinker with that tonight…I’ll let you know how it goes…


(Tom) #11

For social/cultural significance? Pizza? It’s widely known to the point of being iconic, individualized, and accessible by people all over the world who adhere to all sorts of different ways of eating.


#12

I don’t disagree with this, but I think bread was chosen because the manna that the Jews gathered while wandering the wilderness was bread-like in consistency and they chose the thing that was closest to it.

Personally, I feel no specific allegiance to bread, so I’ve used leaves of Spring Mix lettuce and more recently a small chunk of a brazil nut to substitute for the bread.

However, I see no reason that someone couldn’t use Oopsie Bread, or the 2 minute keto bread in a mug.


(Barbara Greenwood) #13

Communion is a remembrance of the Last Supper, which was a Passover meal. The bread that was used was unleavened - I’ve seen pittas or other flatbreads used in attempt to get closer to what Jesus and the Disciples actually used, although matzos may have been closer.

But, if the incarnation means anything, then it must mean that the “Bread” of each community and culture is acceptable to use for communion. Bread is a staple food in most western cultures, but comes in infinite variety.

If Jesus came today and used pizza, would it be fathead, do you think?


(Crow T. Robot) #14

I think we are talking about two separate contexts. The “daily bread” of different cultures around the world is different, e.g. in SE Asia wheat bread is uncommon and rice is predominant. Any widely available and common staple of the diet could be considered “daily bread”.

However, the Last Supper was accompanied by the instruction to keep doing it in remembrance of the sacrifice that Jesus was about to make. The bread and wine were used as symbols of the flesh and blood of Christ. In particular, the fact that the bread was unleavened symbolized the sinlessness of Jesus. I think for the commemoration of the Last Supper, one should stick as closely as possible to the original.


(Barbara Greenwood) #15

Hmm… that is ringing a bell for me somewhere, which probably means I’ve heard it before. My gut instinct is to suggest that that is a later Christian interpretation, a forcing of symbolism onto something which had a practical origin. Unleavened bread was eaten at Passover as a reminder of the haste with which they had to leave Egypt - there was no time to let the yeast work.


(Crow T. Robot) #16

Oh, no doubt. The original Jewish Passover bread definitely had a practical origin.


(Matthew Gibson) #17

Ok so, we were at church Sunday and I put the piece of bread in my mouth… But immediately thought… omg… I’m ruining my fast… And thought long and hard about taking the little cup of juice but did drink it. All I could this k about was… did I just ruin my way of eating for th2 day… And also… How do I explain this one… Was running through my head how I could explain to the usher… umm sorry I can’t eat that but I believe… haha


(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #18

May I ask: did you start this, or was it something that was wished upon you?

You’ve already explained that the communion bread and wine isn’t really a big problem.
The problem seems to be the other things, which seem to me to be more cultural than any particular part of your religion. (I happen to be married to a practising Methodist. They don’t have Bread Church but they have plenty of communal lunches and occasional dinners that are usually very carby, a problem when I (who happen to be a LCHF/keto ex-Catholic non-believer) am a guest… :slight_smile: ).

The problem seems to be that carbs are so very deeply embedded into our culture, whether we are part of a religious group or not. I’ve had similar problems at other communal gatherings with no religious connections whatsoever.

However, going back to religion for a moment, one thing I remember from my Catholic upbringing is the symbolism of “The Lamb of God”, with (presumably) Christ being the sacrificial lamb, which reminds us of stories in the Old Testament about animals being sacrificed.

Which reminds us that the biblical Hebrews were a partly pastoral, partly nomadic people, and meat must have been an important part of their diet.

I am also reminded of the phrase “to kill the fatted calf”, reminding us that fatty meat was the most prized sort of meat among ancient peoples.

Perhaps you should replace “Bread Sunday” with “Lamb Sunday”: Come together and roast a nice fatty joint of lamb and share it, and slice up the remainder for people to take away and either put in their fridges/ freezers or give away. (There would have to be a vegetarian option I suppose).

And I’m sure “The Lamb of God” and perhaps the place of animals and meat in our culture throughout the ages could provide plenty of material for sermons.


(Crow T. Robot) #19

It depends on the timeframe. The “Hebrew people” generally date from the time that Abraham and his family moved from the Chaldean city of Ur to the land of Canaan. During that time (about 4 centuries) until their sojourn in Egypt, they “lived in tents”, made no cities, raised animals, and that was pretty much it. Possibly, they traded for grain because Med style flat bread was a fairly common staple. That said, dairy and meat were daily fare.

In Egypt, it’s most likely that their diet mirrored the Egyptians being heavy grain consumption, though they still kept animals.

After the Exodus, life in the new land of Israel was more or less a standard agricultural system. They farmed various forms of grain, along with vineyards and the usual domestic animals (minus swine, of course). Interestingly, though, the vast majority of the millions upon millions of animals sacrificed at the Tabernacle and later at the Temple in Jerusalem were eaten by the Priests and in some cases the people bringing the sacrifice.

Suffice it to say, meat eating was widespread among the Hebrews.


(Barbara Greenwood) #20

The suggestion was made by someone else, but I embraced it because I have experienced it elsewhere and seen the positive benefit in terms of community and personal growth.

Having started it, it would be difficult to relaunch as Lamb Church. And not everyone needs to avoid carbs as strictly as those of us with deranged metabolism. Just most people :wink:


(Jacob Wagner) #21

The communion bread isn’t a tradition, its a commandment. That puts in a different category.

Unleavened bread was chosen because the people fled in a hurry and couldn’t wait to let it rise. However, bread has always been a symbol of life. In days of the temple there was bread displayed in it as a symbol of providence and of life.

Actually it is a Hebrew tradition. Before the passover the Hebrews searched their tents (later homes) and removed every bit of levin to symbolize the removal of sin from thier households. This practice is still in use today. Today a bit of levin (a crumb or so) is intentionally left in the house and then just before the Passover the king of the feast (usually the partiarch of the family) does a ritual search where he finds the remaining levin and removes it from the home.

One another note. please remember that the bread eaten in the 1st century was not the highly-bred and refined dwarf wheat that we grow in the USA today. It was still grain-based, but much healthyer than anything you or I have likely eaten.

–Jacob


(Karen Parrott) #22

It’s an interesting situation. I’m former UMC church member. I abstain 100% from all grains and juices due to food addiction remission. I think the next time I attend church with family and friends , I’ll go up there and pretend to take it ( is this called in absentia??)

Anyhoo, I used to serve communion at the UMC Church and someone came up and pretended to take the bread and the grape juice. I had no clue what was going and the minister next to me talked me through it. Now I understand why people may not receive the sacrament but take it in spirit

Pretty sure my HP doesn’t want me to suffer for days or even weeks with binge urges over the bread and the grape juice.


(Clara Teixeira) #23

Like pizza. “I am the pizza of life?”


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

It’s debatable whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal or not. In fact, at least one of the Gospels makes a big deal about how they rushed the Crucifixion to get it over with before Passover started that evening. That was a Friday, so Thursday night couldn’t have been a Passover meal. Therefore, a number of Christian theologians assume that the bread was leavened, and for them, the symbology pairs with that of the wine: both in yeast bread and in wine there is human effort and also a mysterious transformation (leavening in the first, fermentation in the second) that symbolizes how the Holy Spirit works in people. Take the thought for what it’s worth.

Personally, I have found that you can’t stop people from eating carbs any more that you can stop people (sometimes the same people!) from sinning. I’m not sure it’s my place even to try. I have a strong moralistic streak that needs to be kept under control or I start telling the world what to do, and for some reason most people find that annoying. (That said, you’d all be in a lot better shape if you’d just listen to me and do things my way, lol!)

I don’t worry about Communion because the quantities are so small. And given the wafers they use in the parish where I work, it doesn’t trigger my carb addiction because (as one humorous bishop put it) it takes more faith to believe it’s bread than to believe it’s the Body of Christ. Likewise, over years of sobriety I have perfected the art of taking the tiniest sip of the wine. As a priest friend of mine put it, it’s the Blood of Christ, but it can still get me drunk, so I am always careful. And I never partake if I think one of my addictions is going to be triggered that day. God may not want me in the thrall of addiction, but he’s also not about to save me from deliberate stupidity on my part, lol!

For those worried about the consequences of partaking, I can assure you that the ancient tradition is that receiving Communion in one element only (whether bread or wine) is just as valid as receiving both, and there is even a tradition that, when bringing Communion to the sick, if medical reasons prevent the patient from receiving the Elements physically, the spiritual benefits of Communion are still transmitted. Surely this principle also applies to ketonians, as well. We can trust that God understands and does not niggle about these things as we do. The Sacrament is there to bless us, not to torture us.


(Jacob Wagner) #25

That is certainly true.

As for the rest, quoting numerous traditions is one thing, but what is important is what the Word says. I am not saying you are wrong about any of your conclusions, just trying to focus on the priority.

–Jacob