I think we agree completely here. However I’m more inclined to lean towards Dr Ben Bikman since he is an actual research scientist and has been working exclusively in this field full-time for a few years. We don’t have all the answers and may not for decades, but I also find it curious that some people who follow Ted Naiman lose weight faster with higher protein, but we have a lot of carnivores that are losing weight faster with the PKD high fat protocol. Ymmv
The human body does in-fact randomly produce glucose constantly, if it didn’t we would fall over dead.
When you only eat meat, the effect of GNG is “minimal”, the last time I counted there are around 5 biological pathways (liver, kidneys, muscle, intestinal lumen, adrenal glands) and there may be more but the main substrate for GNG being lactate from active muscle for the body to manufacture glucose not just amino acids from dietary protein and then you have to factor in nitrogen balance.
So a tiny bit of insulin comes in and cleans up the tiny bit of glucose no matter from what source but in smaller volumes/levels.
As far as burning ketones or oxidized fatty acids for fuel only is not realistic, too many glucose dependent processes at work so it is actually 50%-50% which is a more realistic and rounded assumption.
 ”…Protein requires insulin for metabolism, as do carbohydrate and fat, but has minimal effects on blood glucose levels. In well-controlled diabetes, large amounts of protein have the potential to contribute to glucose production, minimally increase blood glucose levels, and require additional small amounts of insulin. …” …More
 “…Cortisol caused significant increase in blood glucose level ((p<0.05) and reduction in blood lactate levels. The results of this study show that cortisol-induced hyperglycemia is a consequent of gluconeogenesis and mediated through the beta-adrenergic receptors. …” …More
 “…Nearly all glucose after an overnight fast will come from our body’s own production—whether breaking down stored glycogen or creating glucose through GNG. At this point, each metabolic pathway will contribute about half—50% for GNG and the other 50% from glycogenolysis. …” …More
 “…Effects of acute insulin excess and deficiency on gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in type 1 diabetes. …” …More
Good stuff thank you!
This jives with my experience as I’ve added more meat/protein to my diet. I planned out my meals for today and saw 184g protein and was like OMG THAT’S TOO MUCH!!! I was trying to fast twice a week but when I started adding in more meat, I feel like my body is saying FEED ME!!! I feel like my body is waking up and like I’m getting more energized mentally and physically, so this does not feel like the time to fast; it feels like the time to feed. When I feel really comfortable and confident, when I feel really ready to fast again, then I will, because I do believe in the benefits of fasting. I really appreciate this… She seems to be very knowledgeable and as an aging female, this is important information for me. It’s so good to know that I don’t have to worry about getting “too much” protein.
OMG he’s in San Diego where I grew up!!! Miss that place…
I completely agree with him on the sustainable farming thing. I am in the minority being carnivore adjacent and an environmentalist.
I got annoyed with Dr. Lyon the first time I heard her talk because I HATE when a woman in particular cites “emotional reasons” as the justification for people to eat vegan. I source the food I eat as humanely as possible for “emotional” and ethical and environmental reasons. “Emotional” tends to be code for feminine, which has become a negative in our hyper-masculine society. So I particularly hate to hear a woman using that term so fucking dismissively.
But… I’m very glad that I kept an open mind because Dr. Lyon has a lot of good ideas.
I have been wondering about this ever since I first heard this episode a few weeks ago. I have been hoping that Dr. Saladino talks about it again because I was/am under the impression that gluconeogenesis is demand-driven. So even if we eat high protein, I thought that we are still keto because we are low enough carbohydrate (assuming we are not eating excessive dairy and honey) to be in ketosis. I do not test my ketone levels, but other carnivores do and they register in ketosis.
You didn’t use his whole name. It is Dr. Salad-I-No!
People here love to say this and while it’s true it is not the pass that people seem to conclude for any protein amount.
Gluconeogenesis is demand driven but one of it’s major drivers of demand is the metabolism of protein. This is even more so for people in ketosis. When you eat protein your insulin goes up and blood sugars are taken up by your cells. This leads to an increase in glucagon to replace the blood sugar and hence a demand for more glucose.
So with a lot of protein you have insulin driving your ketones lower and increased consumption of glucose by your cells. This is the exact opposite of what the ketogenic diet is trying to achieve and the reason why the protein macro exists. Dr. Phinney is quite clear on this point. Protein over macros can drop ketones below levels required for successful weight loss.
Remember, being in ketosis is about keeping insulin low and controlling carbs is the best single way to do that. So we concentrate on carbs, but its not the only thing that drives higher insulin and excessive protein consumption is another culprit.
Yes, most carnivores will register some ketones but usually if they eat a lot of protein it’s at a very low level. I actually gain weight easily while having very low ketones so unless I’m eating carnivore with high fat it doesn’t work for me.
You know what, our bodies can s*** it!!! I keep diving into rabbit holes and I just keep getting smacked across the face by science. I discovered keto and carbs are bad, then opened the oxalate/phytic acid/histamine/lectins can of crazy, now I’m ready to throw out my omega 3 capsules since I’ve started reading the rabbit hole of cocoa butter/SFA/PUFA… I give up, I can’t do it anymore, my body’s won the war, battle, whatever - high fat+moderate protein, protein’s fine, don’t worry about protein, don’t add extra fat, but wait, don’t eat too much protein, who counts macros and ketogenic ratios, you should do proper ratios…
WOW do I hear that!!! I was about to start a thread saying WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU PEOPLE DONE TO ME??? Keto, then Fasting, then Carnivore, then OXALATES… OMG WTF??? Yeah TMI in a big way.
Eat meat drink water
Can you cite to any evidence in support of this? Any? At all?
Particularly, can you cite to any evidence, that “too much” protein ceases to cause “successful weight loss” in those in ketosis?
I personally do not believe in and have never used “macros”. If anything, those are the WORST thing the keto world has ever done. How many times do we have someone coming here, freaking out because they didn’t meet some artificial macro?
The problem is that something like the PKD diet might work because you’re increasing the amount of saturated fat in your diet, not because of a “macro”. Until we put two groups of people on the PKD, one eating a higher PUFA diet, and one eating a lower PUFA diet, we aren’t going to know.
I personally have no issues with protein. And if I have “low” ketones because of it, I cannot find any reason to think that “higher” ketones are better. And please don’t cite Phinney against me, as I don’t think he’s correct.
I can relate… I mostly experiment on myself but read articles too, think, try out things… But I can’t stress about everything especially when I don’t have so many options when I eat in a way that feels just right.
I personally can’t avoid high protein, I need that for satiation. It has nothing to do with carnivore, I ate similar amount of protein on vegetarian keto too as I needed that. It’s good I don’t have any problems with it and couldn’t care less about ketones, I just want to feel and function right (and lose fat too but I am very patient) and all require very low carb in my case, that’s all. But if I had some problem with it, I still couldn’t do much at this point. It’s not insanely high protein, just higher than what I possibly need. It’s fine.
Mental health is pretty important too and I need to eat something that satiates me.
You would think it is so simple…
Just muscle meat or head-to-toe? How much protein? Do I add fat? 2:1 ratio? Avoid pork and chicken because of omega 6? But you can lean cuts and add your own fat… Butter or ghee? Lard? Omega 6? Tallow? Watch out for the rendered fat, it will have you running to the bathroom, but carnivore also can cause some constipation. Don’t add fat, you have enough on your body. Eat fat, moderate protein…
Don’t even get me started on eggs and dairy!
I was just getting ready to start testing out the SFA theory and then I read Ilana’s post…my head exploded.
As Scarlett O’Hara would sort of say : I can’t think about that right now. If I do, I’ll go crazy. I’ll think about that tomorrow. After all, tomorrow is another day!
Eat the meat you like and can afford. Drink water. 10 year plus veterans all say the same. Simple. No macros, most don’t touch organ meat
Dave Feldman wore a CGM during his carnivore experiment and the line was totally flat
I appreciate the time you took to explain this. It’s helped clarify some things for me as I’ve just been mostly blindly following low carb eating/ Keto/ and now full carnivore over my years long journey.
Someone had a good response to what I said, it is worth reading!
I prefer Rhett to Scarlet: “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn” … if you disagree with what I think I should do
That’s the person I meant to respond to! Thank you for also pointing it out!