Test Breath Ketones without a Ketonix (using a cheap breathalyzer)

ketonix
acetone
breath
(German Ketonian) #662

“In healthy individuals, breath acetone is affected by multiple factors. Dietary macronutrient composition has the greatest impact followed, in rank order, by caloric restriction, exercise, pulmonary factors, and other factors.”

That’s my entire point: It depends on the goal. If your goal is fat loss, breath ketones aren’t necessarily indicative of that goal, because (like blood ketones) it’s most strongly associated with fat intake. That alone doesn’t tell you anything except that and how deep you are in ketosis. I can have my largest amount of ketone bodies after a keto cheat meal of thousands of calories. If I am fasted and using my stored fat, I get much lower readings. That’s why I think only therapeutic purposes of ketosis are unambiguous when it comes to judging whether deep ketosis is preferable to lower readings.

(Michael) #663

No, you are misinterpreting the papers findings.

The research paper clarifies as follows:

In non-diabetic subjects, the dietary composition appears to have the greatest
impact on BrAce (aka Breath Acetone-my edit inside brackets) relative to the other factors reviewed. This factor has the greatest impact because acetone is produced when fat is metabolized; increased fat metabolism causes increased acetone production.

(German Ketonian) #664

How am I misinterpreting? I as a non-diabetic have elevated ketones precisely when I am eating a lot of dietary fat, not necessarily when I burn a lot of body fat. This is what the paper says. Fat can be metabolized as either dietary or body fat. increased fat metabolism causes increased acetone production. But acetone production doesn’t hinge on the source of the fat. Hence my observation that for me, acetone levels rise during keto overfeeding, not starvation, fasting or fat loss.

(Michael) #665

In sporting parlance, you continue to move the goal posts. This thread is basically about detecting breath acetone in a cheap and cheerful manner as the easiest, cheapest and best way of confirming that one is in ketosis.

You insist insist on transposing your blood ketone measurements as being acetone measurements. Sure work away with your n=1 observations but please do not argue that they are relevant when in actual fact they are invalid.

I intend to start a new thread about the futility of blood ketone measurement for most of those following the Keto WOE and not continue with the hijacking of this thread.

(German Ketonian) #666

Yes, I am the one moving the goalpost…

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #667

Is this merely your opinion, or do you have evidence to support the idea that testing acetone in the breath is more accurate than testing beta-hydroxybutyrate in the blood? Phinney based the notion of “nutritional ketosis” on one’s serum level of BOHB, after all.

Furthermore, serum BOHB is, as we all know, only a marker for the the notion of fat-adaptation, since it is impossible to measure directly. Phinney says in his public lectures that any level of serum BOHB above 0.5 mmol/dL is a sign that the body is manufacturing ketones, which will presumably lead to fat-adaptation soon, if not immediately. He also admits that 0.5 is a fairly arbitrary threshold, especially since fat-adapted endurance athletes often show much lower levels while clearly still producing and using ketones.

0.0 ketones after 38 hours fasted?
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #668

Good points, Zimon. I would only suggest emending the first point to say that one’s breath acetone level only measures one’s excretion of acetone, not how much the body is producing and using. It is the same case as it is with the urine strips and acetoacetate.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #669

This is a very interesting summary of the available research. I note, however, that one of the key papers on which this article is based concluded that acetone was a reliable indicator of fat metabolism after comparing the serum BOHB and exhaled acetone of twelve (12) subjects fed four ketogenic meals over a twelve-hour period that followed a twenty-four-hour fast.

I would like to see a much larger study done over a period of at least twelve weeks, since we know that in most people fat-adaptation takes at least six to eight weeks, and that measured ketone levels often drop significantly after fat-adaptation is achieved. I would be interested to know if this relationship between the amount of acetone excreted in the breath and the amount of fat being metabolized persists after twelve hours.

I would also like to know whether Joseph Anderson’s company, Mediamonitor Corp., made inexpensive breathalyzers. They don’t show up in the Google searches I did, so I must conclude that either they are an extremely small company, or else they have gone out of business.

(Michael) #670

Hi Paul. Stephen Phinney is mainly concerned with treating diabetes. Blood ketone measurement is essential for those with Type-1 or advanced Type-2 diabetes to warn of impending coma and ketoacidosis. He therefore uses the tools at his disposal and broadens their usefulness to highlight that at lower levels in the blood, ketones are “nutritional”.

Yes, a larger study would be informative and yes all I’ve read indicates that measured blood ketone levels do drop off after fat adaption. This makes it more difficult for the average punter to know what is going on and it may have led to the idea of not measuring at all.

I like to measure and I have found the results consistent for breath for over 6 months. I pity those who are shelling out money for blood ketone measuring devices that the published diabetes research suggests they need when in fact a cheap breathalyser is in reality more effective and much cheaper but just a little too loud :loud_sound: for me.

I think everyone experiences a stall in weight loss or desired body confirmation change. I find that monitoring a few days of historical data from my breath device allows me to fine tune my diet without bothering with macros at all as I like to keep it simple.

Six months ago I had planned to buy a KetoMojo but when I checked they were not available for shipment outside the US. I am happy that I am now informed enough to know that I don’t need one.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #671

As long as it works for you, that’s great.

Dr. Phinney is now working with diabetic patients, yes, but in the research he and Jeff Volek have done over the last twenty years on endurance athletes, they used the athletes’ respiratory quotient to get a better handle on whether they were burning fat or carbohydrate. Watch some of their lectures on high performance in ketosis; I think you will find them illuminating.

I remain unconvinced by the Anderson article you cited. In fact, the more I look into the research he cites, the less convinced I am.

(Michael) #672

Joseph Anderson is still involved with Mediamonitor LLC but it is not his company. The company markets the LEVL device which is rather expensive to own and run. On the LEVL website Anderson says that the gold standard really would be blood measurement of beta-hydroxybutyrate. This contrasts very much with what Michel Lundell says in his video behind the Diet-Doctor paywall but he seems to be less clear on his Ketonix website:

I am disappointed that the LEVL device and the Ketonix both claim to measure acetone in ppm. One of them seems to be out by a factor of 10 because the Ketonix is calibrated to range from 0-100ppm and the LEVL device is calibrated to a max of 8ppm.
The question for me is : Which one of them is incorrect?

I am inclined to give the Ketonix the benefit of the doubt! (for now).

(Josey M Johnson III) #673

Don’t be embarrassed! If they can feed their face, wipe their butt, and put clothes on, give you a hug, and say “Thank you, mom!” YOU gave them a great start! :wink:

(Central Florida Bob ) #674

Getting back to the breathalyzers, I have an AT6000 that I bought a while ago. Most likely in '17 but I don’t recall exactly when.

Lately it has been acting weird. How long do these last if you use them pretty regularly? Between us, my wife and I probably use it 5 or 6 times a day. More when it’s acting weirdly.

Is there a way to clean out the sensor? Any maintenance I can do?

(Dan Dan) #675

@CFLBob

Technique Update :thinking:

Hold breath on countdown at 20 then immediately at beep blow making ha sound for 4 to 5 seconds no more no less :grinning:

Restore/Clean by performing 5 dry runs let cool for 20 min :face_with_monocle:

(Central Florida Bob ) #676

Thanks for your update. After trying to swab it out with a Q-tip, we found what seems to work is to hold it with the edge that has the blow-in port facing down and tap it on a hand a half dozen times. Never did understand that, but it seemed repeatable.

I’ll try your approach next time.

(David Miller Putnam) #677

BJ, thank you for your input from Mar of '17. I was very interested in your profile saying you were a recovering diabetic, good way to describe it. Do you think you have successfully cured yourself of diabetes thru diet and fasting? That’s where I among…trying to cure myself.

(Richard) #678

Thanks for the response. I was just trying to find out what the numbers really mean. Should my goal be to be anything above zero or should I be shooting for responding like I am drunk?
Rich

(The o-chem police are coming) #679

I have not read the entire thread. I am very curious if there is a direct correlation between the number on the breathalyzer vs blood BHB levels. As it is for me, I just use it as a unit-free analog scale. Meaning I don’t try to correlate the breathalyzer number to likely serum number. I use it to see how my activity, diet and how I feel correlate with some number that correlates to ketosis. Mine gives results in mg/dl of EtOH. Since acetone has a different weight to EtOH the gig is up right there. Also, I don’t know how sensitive the device is to acetone vs EtOH. So I assume the number gets bigger when I have more acetone in my breath and I assume I have more acetone in my breath when my ketone levels are higher. From there its up to me to determine what range works for me.

Questions is: What is the number range when I feel good, eat the food I like, wt lose at an acceptable rate, energy level and athletic performance good. So far so long as it read a number then I’m content with how I feel. Minimum number on mine is 0.2mg/dl. It is also very handy to see in real time how hidden carbs in food knock you around.

(Richard) #680

This graph is the closest I have ever found. it came from somewhere deep in this thread.
Enjoy!!!
Merry Christmas

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Alcohol, acetone breath analyzer data.jpg706×404 27.5 KB

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #681

I wouldn’t worry about it. Acetone in the breath simply means that your liver is producing enough ketone bodies for the body to feel comfortable wasting some in your breath. I never measure, because I get this feeling in my mouth that is a pretty good indication that I am in ketosis.

And besides, as long as you are keeping carbohydrate low, your liver has to be making ketone bodies just to keep the brain and other organs fueled. Not only that, it’s more important to be fat-adapted than to be producing ketone bodies every last second of the day.