Terrible Anxiety

anxiety
(Jarrod Schaefer) #1

My name is Jarrod and I’m going carnivore! I’m so glad I found this place so I can talk to people who are also trying this out.

I’ve went for it several times before but I always end up developing anxiety and insomnia after a few days and it makes it very hard to keep going because as soon as I eat carbs, the anxiety goes away and I can sleep again.

My body feels awful on carbs, but my brain gets weird without them. haha

Longest I’ve gone is 50ish days but the anxiety comes and goes in waves and seems to get worse over time.

Yesterday was day 3 this time and it spiked so hard last night that I had to give my wife some space so I wouldn’t be mean to her, and I needed Zzzquil to sleep enough so I wouldn’t be useless at work today.

It MIGHT be transition symptoms, it MIGHT be that my protein is too high and my fat is too low, it MIGHT be something like glutathione or not enough GABA… but honestly I don’t know.

It’s made such a huge positive impact to the health of my body and this anxiety and insomnia is very frustrating.

Any resources in the forum I can look at? Anybody have similar experiences?

Thanks in advance for any help! I’m so happy to get to meet everybody.

(Robin) #2

Welcome! I’ll leave it to others with more knowledge or experience with this issue.
But, glad you found us.

(Brian) #3

It’s kind of a little thing, but something that came to mind…

What time of day are you eating?

I have personally noted that if I eat a large meal, especially of beef, late in the day, I’m awake at night and don’t tend to sleep well. I’ve been told that there is a lot of energy in beef and when I eat a large meal of it late in the day, my body wants to be active, not go to sleep.

There do seem to be a few people who claim to do better when they have a small amount of carbs. And by that, I don’t mean only one cream filled donut a day. LOL! Have heard anything from a bit of sweet potato to a small glass of milk. (Heard the sweet potato thing from Sally Norton, and the glass of milk from Dr. Rob Cywes speaking of his young son.)

Mostly, I think the general thought was that there is potentially some very healthy territory in the “ketovore” space, mostly carnivore, but perhaps just a few carbs, not a lot, a few.

All the best as you figure stuff out. It takes a while. And the diet will probably morph over time.

(Edith) #4

Please read up on Oxalates and oxalate dumping. Oxalates are little crystals that are found in some plant foods. Some are very high in oxalate and some are low. These little crystals can build up over time in our bodies and while we continue to ingest oxalate containing food, those little crystals stay inside settling in joints, kidneys, and other places in the body where they shouldn’t be.

When a person starts eating a carnivore diet, they completely stop ingesting oxalates and the body starts dumping out all those stored crystals. They can come out through urine, bowel movements, skin, even eyes. This dumping can start within a few days or a few weeks of removing oxalates from the diet.

Eating oxalate will stop the dumping which then, of course, stops the dumping symptoms. If you are indeed dumping oxalates, that would explain why you feel better when you add carbs back in.

The article linked above provides some info to get you started if you think this may fit you. There are a number of threads on the forum discussing oxalate, as well. You can do a search on that. The search function actually works pretty well.

Edit: There is also a Facebook group called “Trying Low Oxalate” which has a carnivore subgroup. It has thousands of members and is moderated by nutritionists and oxalate researchers. They have some great resources including a file with the multitude of symptoms people can experience while dumping.

#5

Never tried carnivore but have fasted and you insomnia sounds similar to what I have during fasting. I find I am very cold, have trouble falling asleep and then have trouble staying asleep in the morning (which is not something I normally have, I used to be able to take my kids to the bus and go back to sleep!)

I have not fasted in a while, but do not recall getting anxiety although I had some when I was taking glycine and shortly after I stopped but that was a few years ago but I recall spinning about something silly which I knew was anxiety

I mention this because I think the insomnia may have nothing to do with the meat, fat amounts etc and may simply be the ketosis.

I would check your ketone levels and see if they are spiking when you have trouble sleeping. Also, this may be temporary and your body may adapt. I like Melatonin to sleep. There may be other supplements that others can suggest

(Jarrod Schaefer) #6

Thank you so much!

(Bean) #7

My mental health is better higher fat. 80% fat+.

(Eve) #8

@jarrodssc I have to tell you that for me, the keto diet made my depression and anxiety much worse, and l did religiously stick to it for a year and a half, so any initial symptoms/ acclimatisation should have passed by then. I have read several articles which state that for some people, a very low carb diet can cause or worsen, mental health problems. There are biochemical reasons why this can happen. I am absolutely not saying this is what’s going on with you, nor should you stop the diet. But I wanted to just give you some more info.

#9

Please try to stay away from the Zzzzquil. That stuff is not good for your system.

I use Alteril. I use the fast acting gel caps. It’s all natural and uses melatonin, tryptophan, and valerian root. I take two of them an hour before bed. However, I also keep a bottle of DaVinci Liposomal Melatonin Spray on my bedside table. Spray in the mouth bypasses digestion interference and sends melatonin directly to the brain. All of it, unlike tablets swallowed may not get as much to the brain due to the interference of stomach acid, digestion, etc. Two capsules of Alteril has 10mg melatonin already, so I wouldn’t use the spray at bedtime, but I use it when I wake up in the middle of the night (like 2 or 3am) and can’t get back to sleep. It takes a bit of time but I usually am able to get another 1-2 hours of sleep because of it, yet when I don’t use it I never get back to sleep, ever. It’s treacherous to have been awake since 2:30 am once noon rolls around! And by 5 pm I am shot and my day is over. So I’m thankful for the option of the spray.

Some people use Calms Forte, also all natural. I find on its own it is not as beneficial as Alteril is for me. However, since there is no melatonin in it, if I use that along with two squirts of the melatonin spray before bed it is. I have it on hand to cycle what I use so I don’t grow resistant to any of these things from overuse.

There’s a great paper about insomnia by A Midwestern Doctor that is quite the eye opener. If anyone struggles with insomnia it’s definitely required reading and it gives fantastic reviews and explanations for all possible treatments, prescription or natural. He/She is quite an amazing doctor. I have a copy of the article. It’s long, but so worth the read. I have a subscription for them so I can see the full document, but I can DM it to you if you’d like? Happy to share it because it helped me.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

If you think your protein is too high and your fat too low, then experiment with a higher proportion of fat. We don’t net massive amounts of protein. Around 2 g per kilo of lean body mass is a good target. Fat should be eaten to satiety, that is, satisfy your hunger and stop.

However, it should be noted that therapeutic diets for brain problems have tended to be extremely high it fat and extremely low in protein. So low, in fact, that the diet has been known to stunt the growth of epileptic children. Fortunately, it has been shown that a diet with a more adequate amount of protein can still protect against seizures.

You might wish to start by going low-carb/keto first, getting through that adaptation, before moving on to a carnivore diet. I know people who were able to relieve depression and anxiety on a ketogenic diet, and people who eventually had to move to a strict carnivore diet to relieve their symptoms. My impression is that it’s generally more effective to do what works in one’s individual case than to adhere to a dietary dogma.

And speaking of dogma, the first dogma of these forums is “Show me the science!” but the second dogma is “Figure out what works for you.” Be as dogmatic about those two things as you want.

(Bean) #11

Also, for not sleeping, I listen to audiobooks on low. Not ones with stories, necessarily. I have a couple of history professors whose voices I like on the Great Courses and another few history books I own that I cycle through. I set the sleep timer for 15 or 30 minutes and can drop off in that time. I use wired ear buds and just put in the bud on side that my tablet is. I estimate it gets me another hour or two of sleep most nights. I started it about five years ago during a very high stress/ high anxiety phase of my life. Bonus is that I am extremely knowledgeable about random world history, lol.

(Alec) #12

Very difficult to know causes of this. But here’s my guesses/suggestions:

  1. Eat a lot of salt and electrolytes, err on the side of way too much. Your body will manage any excess without an issue.
  2. Eat as much fat as you can find. Make sure you find and eat the fattiest meat you can get and add extra fat to each meal eg butter.
  3. Having said that about butter, you could try a month with no dairy. Dairy can wreak havoc on some folks.
  4. You could try the Lion diet for a few weeks: just beef, salt and water. Nothing else. Ultimate elimination diet… do a few weeks then introduce other carni foods one at a time and see how you feel.
  5. You said that carbs makes the symptoms go away… is this perhaps carb withdrawal symptoms? It sounds extreme, but I have heard Drs Chaffee and Berry talking about carbs/sugar/glucose being as addictive as cocaine.
  6. Is it possible that some of the meat you are eating is adulterated with something that you do not get on with?
  7. Do you think you are fat adapted? If not, maybe the lack of carbs is starving your brain of energy until you do become fat adapted?

Please do stick at it, and try various things to stay on carni. Good luck and do please let us know how you go.
Cheers
Alec

#13

Why are you doing Carnivore? Have you done Keto previously?

Red Flag Number 1. You are not sleeping and having to take Zzzquil.
Red Flag Number 2. Anxiety gets worst over time.
Red Flag Number 3. Its affecting your relationship with your wife.

I think it’s telling in the way you describe your experiences so far that you do not state the perceived benefits except that “it (carnivore) has made a huge positive impact on the health of my body.” and “My body feels awful on carbs.” Yet, it’s those same carbs that allow you to sleep and rid you of the anxiety. You do not describe in any detail the positive specifics of going carnivore. Rather, you chose to focus on the negative effects you are experiencing. From what you have described, the negatives outweigh the positives (IMHO). Not everyone thrives on keto or carnivore.

Carbs can mean many things. What do carbs look like in your world? What carbs are working for you, and in what quantity? Carbs are more than just macros. When I started the keto journey almost 15 years ago, I ate nothing that was white or could be white; eggs were the exception. I did eat carbs, or at least my new version of them. 1 cup of berries (15 grams) almost every day and a variety of vegetables every day. I did not measure the carb content of the veggies.

As Paul stated, “You might wish to start by going low-carb/keto first.” This is very good advice.

(Edith) #14

I started doing something similar with podcasts a few years ago. I was waking up around 3:30 stressing and couldn’t fall back to sleep, so I started popping in an earbud and listening to a podcast I had already listened to before on the lowest setting. The low droning voices puts me right back to sleep. Interestingly, it has to be male voices. Female voices don’t the same for me. Unfortunately, training myself to fall back to sleep with low, droning, male voices makes it very difficult to say awake in meetings. Most of my colleagues are men. :rofl:

I was just thinking about this last night. My brother has started following a carnivore diet. It seems to help his psoriasis, but recently he’s had very high anxiety.

My advice to him was to make sure he was getting enough salt and to supplement with magnesium. It got me thinking about this thread. A few years ago I was listening to a podcast with Robb Wolf and he mentioned that low sodium levels causes increased cortisol. Also, magnesium deficiency can cause anxiety.

The suggested amount of salt when eating low carb is about 2 teaspoons a day, sometimes more, sometimes less depending upon the season and activity level. Give it a try. The only “bad” thing that can happen is if you get too much you might retain a little water. If that happens, you’ll know to back off somewhat.

(KM) #15

:rofl::rofl:

(Bob M) #16

I did not know that about salt affecting cortisol. I’ve had one lonely cortisol test done, on one random morning, and the result was “high”. But cortisol is usually higher anyway in the morning and supposedly is higher when you’re losing weight.

Both our kids have anxiety, and one of the common ideas we see is to ensure they get enough Mg (magnesium). Getting enough Mg is easier said than done, though, because some of those pills are huge and they recommend you take multiple ones of them. And this doesn’t consider the overwhelming varieties of Mg there are.

#17

I can’t help but wonder if my husband’s three-decade-long restless leg syndrome and helicopter levels of snoring were an anxiety issue after all. In the past month I started him on extra magnesium and his leg movements have completely ceased. The loudest snore is now just a breathy sound. Almost peaceful! After just a month of supplementing him with magnesium and slipping extra salt on his popcorn. Hee hee

(Edith) #18

Restless legs in another symptom of magnesium deficiency.

#19

If anyone is interested in the benefits of “boring voices” but no risk of getting hooked on a plot or story like an audiobook or podcasts, this “podcast” is great: https://www.sleepbaseball.com/ It’s a series of “fake” baseball broadcasts in the style of old time radio. No cheers, no commercials, no loud noises. Cool feature article here on it, too: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/rabbit-holes/the-rapture-of-listening-to-a-fake-baseball-game

(KM) #20

And what could be better than someone murmuring Holy Cow in your ear all night. :rofl: (Shout out to Phil Rizzuto).