Taking carbs immediately before, or while running

[GME]

I am not a huge beer drinker, but if there is a post-race beer offered at the finish line I am drinking it, even if it is only 10:00 am.

I even took a small cup once from stranger set up at mile 12 of a half. It was delicious.

[Hallie]

At mile 12 and a half you take anything you can get!

[KennyCrox]

My BG goes up with strength training I think.

Hybrid Car Analogy

Your body is similar to a Hybrid Car in how it operates.

Electric Battery = Ketones

For long drives that that don’t require much power, the Electric Batter provides the fuel/energy.

Think of the Electricity in this case as being your Ketones.

Gas = Gliucose

When you need power, to let’s say pass another car, Gas is used.

Think of Gas in this case as being Glucose.

with that in mind, let’s look at…

The Three Energy Sysysems

1. Phosphagen Energy System

This system run primarily off ATP, Andenosine Triphophate; rather than Glucose or Ketones.

Highly Intentive exericse that around 15 second or less; not longer than 30 seconds use ATP.

Thus, Keto Adapted and Standard American Diet (High Carbohydrate Diet) indifiduals perform equally as well in this Energy System.

ATP Muscle Restoration for the next set of an exercise occurs with Ketones and some Glucose, producing an increase in some blood sugar.

2. Glycolytic Energy System

This involve fairly high intensive exercise that is over 30 seconds and less than 2 minutes.

Individuals in sport or who employ exericse in the Glycolytic Energy System, perform more effectively on a higher carbohydrate diet; this is a Glucose Dominate System.

3. Oxidative Energy System’

This is one of the most researched areas, when it come to Keto Adapted individual.

Endurance Athletes and exercises last longer than 2 minutes plus, utilize more Ketones (body fat) in this Energy System.

As we know, the lower the intensity of the “Activity” the greater the percentage of Ketones used; with very little Glucose being used.

Sleeping Example

Sleeping is the lowest form of “Activity” (Inactivity) their is.

Thus, it burn the greatest percentage of body fat (Ketones) and utilized viturally no Glucose.

However, it doesn’t burn many calories; unless you are a hybernatiing bear.

“… Male bears may lose between 15% to 30% of their body weight during hibernation , while lactating females may lose up to 40%.” http://bearsmartdurango.org/black-bears/hibernation/#:~:text=Hibernating%20bears%20have%20the%20ability,may%20lose%20up%20to%2040%.
:
:Kenny Croxdale

[ctviggen]

I can’t seem to shake my idea about the difference between circulating ketones versus production and consumption. I guess you don’t find it at all satisfactory as an explanation.

I’m not against this, just that I have cardiomyopathy (a type of heart failure). There’s a lot of evidence that implies the heart loves ketones in this situation. This implies it would behoove me to have high ketones…but I no longer get them unless I fast multiple days.

I can see that, over time, the difference between consumption and production become much closer. It’s just a little disconcerting for someone like me.

[ctviggen]

I wore a CGM for a couple of weeks a while back and long endurance runs seemed to bring my BG down. I came back from 6 or 7 miles (which was long for me at the time) with BG in the high 60s, down from the 90s when I started the run.

For me, shorter, higher intensity workouts would leave me with higher BG. I think my body sensed it needed it, so released sugar from my liver and kept it up, where with the long, slower effort it drew my BG down without releasing a bunch.

I really don’t know exactly what was going on, but that makes some sense to me.

This could be true. I only do what I would characterize as “high intensity” workouts. For instance, if I ride my bike, I ride it a short distance to hills and ride up and down them. If I do body weight training, it’s always to failure (if I’m doing pushups, I do them until I can’t do them anymore).

The only exception would be working on the house. But that might be intense exercise separated by intense exercise.

[PaulL]

This implies it would behoove me to have high ketones

Do you mean “high ketones” in the sense of abundant production, fairly closely matched by consumption, or in the sense of production that measurably outstrips consumption?

[amwassil]

@ctviggen @PaulL My major questions involve the brain and ketones. Like you, Bob, I measure very low ketones whenever I measure (4 1/2 years in ketosis). If a ‘brain on ketones is a healthy brain’ or at least healthier how does my brain get them? Is my brain even healthy? I don’t have any symptoms to indicate anything particularly wrong, so I presume it is. I have BG in the mid-low normal range and eat to remain consistently in ketosis. So how much energy does my brain derive from ketones and glucose? I don’t know. See my links here, which I linked above as well, that indicate the brain may, in fact, synthesize it’s own supply of ketones. If this is the case it could help explain why long-term keto/fat-adapted folks measure low ketones generally and still avoid the various degenerative diseases of the brain. If the brain makes its own that’s a huge amount the liver no longer has to produce. And I think would significantly reduce the amounts traversing the bloodstream at any given moment of measurement. Plus, for those of us in maintenance with relatively low BF, it would retain a consistent supply of ketones to the brain while ketogenesis in the liver might not be producing much simply because we’re not eating sufficient fat to overwhelm the acetylCoA pathway.

[PaulL]

how does my brain get them? Is my brain even healthy? I don’t have any symptoms to indicate anything particularly wrong, so I presume it is.

If you are are keeping your carb intake low, then your liver is making either ketones or glucose to feed your brain. In a low-carb state, the insulin/glucagon ratio is low, thus favouring ketogenesis (gluconeogenesis also occurs but is pretty tightly regulated), so I’d say your brain is being fed mostly on ketone bodies.

Cahill demonstrated this in the 1960’s by subjecting his fasting subjects to a hyperinsulinaemic euglycaemic clamp, driving their serum glucose to levels low enough to cause hypoglycaemic coma or death, but the subjects were fine. (As Dr. Phinney remarks in a few of his lectures, “the people sweating and trembling were the ones in the white coats.” This was actually a highly unethical experiment, but it was illuminating, nevertheless.) Since the research subjects were well into the ketosis of fasting, this demonstrates that the brain is able to get a high percentage of its fuel (if not all) from ketone bodies. Unlike fatty acids and triglycerides, ketone bodies can readily pass the blood-brain barrier, or so I understand.

We regularly get forum members with CGM’s posting that their serum glucose has dropped to worrisome levels, yet they feel fine. We tell them not to worry about it, unless they start showing symptoms of hypoglycaemia.

[ctviggen]

It’s a difficult question. I’m also concerned about my heart. Does it primarily use ketones? And if so, how since my ketones are so low?

As for a lot of this, there really aren’t studies on people who have been keto for a long time. I listened to someone who measured BHB in the Masai and the Hazda. The tests came back as 0.1mmol/l or so. Similar to us.

So, this has to be evolutionarily sound.

I would assume that the “substrates” transition after a while to ketones, free fatty acids, with less reliance on glucose. But how long that takes and why (and is it “bad”?) are all up in the air.

@PaulL For the ketones, most of the testing for heart failure and ketones is based on “higher” ketones. But most of them are animal models.

I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence that keto works, but not many RCTs. Here’s one, but I don’t see any outcome:

Ketogenic Diet in Patients With Heart Failure - Full Text View -...

But even if these happen, I’m sure the people being treated will have higher ketones, as I did at one time.

I have been thinking about doing a PKD to see what happens. Would ketones go up? If so, would I feel better? I just haven’t had time to do this.

[PaulL]

But that still doesn’t answer whether or not the ketones happen not to be showing because consumption is close to production (as opposed to not showing because production is low). The circulating gap is irrelevant as long as production is sufficiently high, no? Even if consumption is also high?

Apparently I am missing part of the logic, here.

[amwassil]

Thanks, I understand all that. Being relatively healthy (not only for my age, but moreso than many much younger), I presume my brain is running on ketones to some extent at least. What is curious is how do the ketones get to brain from the liver undetected? Granted, intermittent testing could be the primary culprit. The ketones are there and in transit and we just miss them because who wants to draw blood frequently enough to catch them? Maybe a ketone ‘CKM’ will come along - I think Bob talked of such a device in the offing - that will show the ketones in transit that get sucked out of the bloodstream by the brain so fast we miss them in intermittent testing. If the brain actually generates its own ketones or some of them, that would help explain some of the unknown. Maybe case of the heart as well. Both the brain and the heart are vital organs and our metabolism seems well adapted to take care of the most essential stuff first when forced to choose.

PS: Don’t misunderstand. I am not expressing any doubts that my metabolism is doing anything other than what it evolved over the course of several million years to do and do well enough. I also accept that over time and in long-term maintenance things might reach a relatively ‘equilibrium state’ that’s different from what your metabolism spent several years getting out of to restore you to relative normality. I’d just like to see what’s going on more clearly. I’d like to be able to measure the relative energy burn taking place in my brain between fat/sugar sources. Maybe if Lumen hadn’t been designed to be a trivial device it could have helped. Maybe something else will come along…

[amwassil]

Let’s analyze this. I just finished a morning bike ride of about an hour’s length. Typically very fast - I generally ride at 30-40 clicks and when the street permits up to 50-55 clicks - and up and down lots of hills. North Vancouver is a hilly place. So probably burned a few hundred calories in the process. Since I’m eating next to zip carbs, that would be primarily fat providing the energy. Even on the several relatively steep and long hills I climbed I had lots of energy and never felt any lack of energy or even tiredness. And on a couple of those hills I was pumping hard to keep up my speed so probably burning glycogen as well - assuming I’ve got about the normal amount.

For the last few weeks I’ve been measuring acetone with my Ketonix upon awakening and then a few times during the day, primarily out of curiosity and not recording or graphing. The acetone levels are generally low - like sub-10 ppm - and I seldom get above 5 ppm. Generally, my highest reading is upon awakening. During the day I seldom get nil readings. Yet this morning as soon as I got back from my ride I blew 0 ppm acetone.

My first guess is whatever acetoacetate I’ve got is converting to β-hydroxybutyrate and/or being burned 100% so there’s no breakdown into acetone. Any other ideas?

[ctviggen]

Which version of Ketonix do you have? I have I think the very first model, which only give me “units”:

On this scale, I’m generally between 20-30, except…sometimes. Often, but not always, these are when I eat a lot of fat the day before. Though some don’t follow that pattern:

If you’re like me, your blood sugar went up during your bike ride. I’ve always assumed that was for glycogen replacement or something else the body needs the blood sugar for.

If there was 100% compliance, where everyone who was on low carb/keto for X years had exactly the same ketone readings, I’d be happier. But I see someone like Amber O’Hearn or others who have way higher ketones and have been carnivore/keto even longer than I have. I’m not sure I understand why. Our bodies are “better” at making output = input?

[amwassil]

Ketonix 2.4 Here’s the meter display (ppm). I don’t use the ‘Ketonix Units’ display on the analysis view since I don’t really understand what their ‘units’ correspond to and I understand ppm very well. When I first got my Ketonix a couple years ago I was consistently registering 20-50ppm all day long and frequently higher. On Aug01 I changed my macros back to 2::4.5 fat grams per protein gram :: fat calories per protein calorie. So I’m curious to see if that changes the acetone levels or not.

[amwassil]

If you’re like me, your blood sugar went up during your bike ride. I’ve always assumed that was for glycogen replacement or something else the body needs the blood sugar for.

I keep saying I’m going to repeat my CGM experiment and don’t get around to doing so. But I think I’d like to determine whether or not what you say here happens so I am definitely going to get a new sensor while I’m still riding! Promise.

[ctviggen]

Sounds good.

My ketonix software won’t let me change to PPM, so maybe I don’t have that option. Mine’s old.

[fitbod]

Bob, you said that you do still register ketones when you fast. It could be interesting next time you do an EF to take some measurements as you break your fast (if you don’t mind using expensive strips!). For example, if you broke the fast with something very high fat (BPC for example) and tested then added in more protein and retested.

I haven’t been keto nearly as long as you but am finding that to get decent ketones I have to eat a higher percentage of fat whereas in the beginning it was enough to just avoid carbs.

It would be interesting to know what happens to people doing keto for something like epilepsy. Do they accept lower ketones over time? Do seizures come back?

[Hallie]

Isn’t there a variation in how well fat-adapted a person can become, depending on past history of hyperinsulinemia and metabolic derangement? Amber OHearn may not have been as metabolically sick, or for as long a period.

Just throwing this in, it’s a long and complicated thread and I’m not over all the details

[ctviggen]

Those are all good questions. I have a complex sent of “answers” (meaning, mostly, I’m not sure), but I’m preparing to go on vacation and am overwhelmed. Will try to get back to this one day.