Survey: Does Any Particular Carb Food(s) Challenge Your Resolve to Eat Keto?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #41

@PaulL if you change your mind, please come visit Vancouver during Walmart’s next fund raiser when we’ll be hustling Krispy Kreme glazed in boxes of a dozen each. When you arrive, ask for me! Thanks.

#42

Agree@PaulL

“Infrequently” for me became so infrequent as to become “never”. My cravings left, so why exert “willpower” to keep them around?

#43

Or in very tiny amounts. But it doesn’t work for everyone. Sometimes it’s way easier just to never eat certain things. I have some trigger food where it works perfectly (or worked, such problem items tend do stop being triggering or tempting after several years or something).

It’s very often not “religious”, it’s choosing the best way to handle things. Sometimes I use low frequency, sometimes tiny amount and sometimes I just cut it out from my diet forever (or very close to that. for 10-20 years, maybe). Whatever is easiest, best, most enjoyable… Our priorities matter too (I personally don’t care about keto, I care about my mental and physical health and well-being).
If an item causes discomfort, the last option (complete elimination) should be chosen (or the second, tiny amounts if it’s doable and it’s mostly harmless that way).

As for the original question… I don’t get “challenged”. I get tempted under certain circumstances and I don’t resist temptation. Not my style, I work on avoiding temptation since ages though and it’s promising. As time passes, it’s usually harder to tempt me (except my early low-carb times, it was totally impossible to get tempted then and it was the same with my first keto months as well. I was determined so it turned off temptation and all compulsions. Carnivore works well most of the time too.)

My such items now? Bread (even the normal kind I bake every week and I find inferior. eggless bread so it can’t be really good but it still has some charm and use), fruits (it’s perfectly fine, I don’t even want to stop eating fruits for long and it rarely interferes with keto. it interferes with carnivore but I am fine with being close to that so no problem), sometimes I get curious about certain sugary sweets but it’s rarely a problem. I strongly prefer my own keto/carnivore sweets.

My biggest trigger item was homemade cakes in my first 7-8 low-carb years. I overdid cakes on keto and I had enough, I am not interested in cakes anymore.

I love crunchy biscuits though but now I can make keto ones. I don’t as they aren’t carnivore. Carnivore biscuits will come later I guess. My dried thin sponge cakes are a good start :smiley:
I love ice cream (mine, I probably couldn’t stomach the ones in stores, I didn’t try them since quite a few years) and similar things but those fits my carnivore-ish woe just fine so they aren’t a problem.
And all booze is keto to me (I mean proper booze, not mixed sugary things I always hated). Beers are a tad trickier but it’s all about amounts and I never drink a whole can/bottle of beer all by myself, that would be quite excessive.

(Laurie) #44

No such thing as “infrequent” for me. I’m not religious, but I am addicted to carbs.

(Jack Bennett) #45

Well, if you want six dozen donuts, you “just” need to binge infrequently enough so that the net average calories added is small. Say 100 kcal per day.

So that’s one six-dozen-donut binge every 200 days or so.

300 kcal * 72 donuts = roughly 21000 kcal… so only go crazy twice a year and you’re golden.

(For everybody reading: DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS, I’m not being serious.)

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #46

Will do, Michael! You deserve that commission! :grin:

@ajbennett :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #47

Maybe I’m missing something, but that reads a lot like Nutty Keto Dogma™. What do you think @240lbfatloss?

(Ken) #48

How about just buying one or two? Then making sure you give your car keys to someone when you eat them.

(Ken) #49

You’d be surprised at how much less enjoyable your former treats are. I find they don’t have near the same effect on me. In fact, now my occasional carb intake is more of a metabolic chore, with resumption of my VLCHF pattern to be more enjoyable.

(Ken) #50

I’d classify your experiences more as “sensible” than “religious”.

#51

Not so surprised. My last carb craving (about 30 days ago) was pinto beans. We have all had pinto beans.

They are not the stuff that dreams are made of. :joy:

(Ken) #52

It’s more of thinking about the Keto/Paleo macro of 5% carbs in a longer time frame, such as days, weeks or months rather than a single day. I doubt I exceed the 5% amount when it’s applied over a longer time frame.

(Ken) #53

You’re actually making more sense than you may think. Yes, I have consumed a dozen donuts or even a small cake or pie over the course of a weekend. Not something you do often, but events like that still come nowhere near enough to fill up liver glycogen.

(Bob M) #54

I do eat carbs infrequently. Will likely make something “carby” for the holidays. But I’ve also been doing this 7 years as of 1/1/21. And I think a lot of the carbs probably goes to my muscles, especially if I work out around the same time.

But I try to make it “infrequently”, and sometimes, that’s hard. I see Indian food was brought up. We got some of this the other day, and without rice, it’s barely anything to eat. 4 or maybe 6 ounces of meat. But rice is like pasta to me – I could easily eat 1/2 - 3/4 pound (dried weight) of pasta and still be hungry.

I guess each person has to decide what they can eat and when. I’ll likely make some bread with Einkorn wheat over the holidays. I was never a big bread eater, so I can do that and not have too many issues. (Though since no one will be here, I’ll make more bread than we can eat; normally, I make bread and there are very few leftovers. This time, we’ll have much more bread left over.)

But we ordered an ice cream pie from the local farm, and normally would split this with a large group. This year, there will be no large group. I’m a big fan of not having anything I don’t want in the house. I’d rather go buy an ice cream in a cone, while at the “farm”, then have nothing at home, rather than have a large amount of ice cream at home. It’s difficult – even after 7 years – not to overeat on things like ice cream.

So, it just depends what triggers you have.

(Jack Bennett) #55

Yeah, six dozen is extreme, and an infrequent binge isn’t going to kill a keto habit. The key question is how infrequent.

It’s one thing if it’s really only twice a year. It’s another if you had such a good time on Christmas that you want to keep going for a couple of days, and then everybody was ordering pizza and it looked good, and then there was a farewell cake for Tom at work and … pretty soon the good habit is a memory. I’ve experienced this failure mode before as many others have too.

Everybody has to understand their level of comfort with “exceptions” or “cheats” or “slips” and how they fit in to the big picture.

(Ken) #56

I’ll attempt to address the term “Infrequently” in a way easier to understand. This is meant to be applied to long term Maintenance, in order to maintain Metabolic Health, defined as prevention of adaptive detrimental conditions such as downregulation of Metabolism, fat loss stalls, loss of libido, ED in Men, etc. and the ability to process both fat as well carbs with equal efficiency.

The issue, as always, is the chronic nutritional pattern, and how it directly impacts Liver Glycogen.We all know, or should, that dropping carbs leads to the secretion of Glucagon. This leads to the first step towards Lipolysis (which ketogenesis is a secondary energy pathway of) which is Glycogenolysis, the depletion of Liver Glycogen. Once depletion occurs true lipolysis can begin. So, it is Liver Glycogen that provides the fulcrum of the Teeter-Totter of Lipolysis vs. Lipogenesis. Having partial liver glycogen and things stay in balance, neither fat gain nor loss, a State of Lipostasis. Chronic overcompensation results in Lipogenesis and subsequent fat gain, along with all the detrimental hormonal adaptations associated with it. Chronic depletion maintains Lipolysis, also along with it’s own set of detrimental adaptations previously mentioned, yet often denied, above. So, while losing fat you’re eating a pattern that secretes primarily Glucagon, and that means keeping carb intake low enough to primarily sustain lipolysis. Once composition goals are met, or if you have large amounts of fat to lose and need a metabolic boost to break a Stall you can go into Maintenance. This does not mean a return to the NAD, which would result in a refilling of glycogen and subsequent return to Lipogenesis, but a minor increase of carb intake, but never chronic nor enough to fill up Glycogen. There are many ways to do this, thr easiest and most popular probably being eating them on the Weekends, and resuming a VLCHF the rest of the week. My choice is one weekend day and one day during the middle of the week.

It all hinges on Liver Glycogen. If you never get near filling up your liver you never experience fat regain or detrimental readaptation. Since these small carb events happen within the context of a return to lipolysis and a primarily VLCHF overall pattern, your body maintains it’s metabolic health and ability to use both carbs (without hyperinsulinemia) and fats efficiently.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #57

The only problem with “infrequently” is that some of us cannot manage it. Sugar and carbohydrate seem to work like addictive substances for some people (I am one of them), and telling us that an occasional indulgence is okay is like telling an alcoholic that he can have “just one drink,” or an addict that an occasional hit of heroin will not hurt her. I’ve known too many addicts and alcoholics who thought that “just one” couldn’t hurt them to believe that “just one” glazed doughnut will work for me. The addictive mindset is hard to describe to non-addicts, but it is summed up in the response by one recovering alcoholic, who said, “Just one? You mean just one keg of beer, or just one case of whiskey, right?”

I suspect that, as is the case with other known addictive substances, only about 20% of the population is vulnerable to finding sugar and carbohydrate addictive. But for those of us who fall into that 20%, the problem is that there is often nothing in between bingeing and complete abstinence. I guess my point is simply that we have to know ourselves. Those of us who find carbohydrate (and especially sugar) addictive need to be very careful, whereas the rest of you do not. You might be able to eat “just one” of those cinnamon rolls my niece left lying around the house this week, and not go out and get more for quite some time. Unfortunately, however, there are those of us for whom “just one” is not an option.

I always make a point of this, because a lot of people don’t think of food as a possible risk. But the existence of Overeaters Anonymous and other programmes says otherwise. Fortunately, a well-formulated ketogenic diet seems to help considerably.

(Laurie) #58

I appreciate Ken’s explanation. But I know that I can’t add carbs back in. If I get to my proper weight and run into problems … I don’t know what I’ll do.

(Ken) #59

I should have added, the “Mental Illness” caveat for you since you always seem to add it in. I suggest getting some Professional Help from a Cognitive Psychology approach so you no longer feel the need to spout it whenever someone attempts to explain the simple biochemistry. Considering yourself to have issues, even to the point you may have developed a Victim Complex is not appealing, and fairly Narcissistic to think it would apply to everyone. If my post had been about alcohol, and you were an alcoholic, would you feel the need to make that point? No, it’s obviously a Given. The real issue is some may begin to think they have problems when they do not, and thus be deprived of the benefit of real experience and knowledge that can help them solve or prevent the potential long term problems when following a VLCHF nutritional pattern. That way they can avoid your situation, that of a long-term Stall while still being overweight. That is your choice, but is doesn’t mean you should be advocating Keto Failure for others.

#60

It’s not all about keeping the carbs low enough for ketosis (I don’t even really care about that but it’s important for many)… I can wonderfully mess up my well-being with way less if I choose my food items wrong. Nothing serious but I prefer to feel great after my meals. Certain items must go as they interfere with that. Still so many great food remains…
And very many of us has trigger foods where tiny amount is impossible and infrequent consumption only means we will ruin 1 day (or week or month, it depends. if my day is really crazy, I automatically drop my carbs so I am safer) per year, not much more often… It’s still a bad idea (unless one would go crazy without that ruined day or something. I would try to find a better solution then but it may take a lot of time. but it’s worth it. stupid compulsions, my pride and hedonism and health-consciousness hate them).