Stunning (to me) admission about full fat versus low fat dairy

(Bob M) #1

Here’s the article:

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Um, we’ve been eating low fat dairy for decades, and you’re saying there may be no reason to do so?

In fact, in school where I live, you CANNOT get full fat dairy. But you can get chocolate skim milk.

(KM) #2

Sorry to be Debbie Downer again, but RFK Jr. is considered to be a nutcase by so many people on both sides of the aisle. This nugget of common sense in the midst of a forest of sincerely questionable ideas is probably going to get pilloried as more crazy-talk, especially from the people invested in maintaining the status quo.

Speaking of, this must be making some headline news, as WAPO actually featured “the truth about dairy” in an Op Ed piece today … WRITTEN BY WALTER WILLETT. Good ^&*# grief. In what universe has Walter Willett ever told the objective truth about Anything.

(B Creighton) #3

The US dietary guidelines are a joke, which were largely implemented to save money on food stamps… [and spend tons more on medicaid and medicare!]

That may be so, but I’m so glad someone is in there finally stirring up the pot a little. I like RFK a lot, and I believe most of what he is doing will do us a ton of good. My dad was a skim milk drinker and got prostate cancer. Since I was a teen I basically stopped drinking milk, and went to yogurt, which for awhile was only available in low fat. When I could get whole milk yogurt, I started doing so. Now I eat goat yogurt, which is full fat. I have only lost weight since I began… I believe because I cut out all the sugar mostly. My blood pressure is down and my health markers are up… Hardly, a damning picture for full fat dairy. With the full fat, I am also going to get the full vitamins and nutrients nature intended. As a matter of fact I’m going to pick up my raw goat milk today. Been using it for years now with nothing but positive health effects.

RFK probably does have a lot of people mad at him, because now several states will not let people buy all the junk food items they used to get with their food stamps… The HORROR! There are influencers posting “Make America Sick Again” next to his picture, etc. The state of the food industry in America is in such an awful state, that I think anything RFK does will be an improvement.

(KM) #4

There are things he does I agree with, and things I don’t. I have been saying full fat dairy is a wonderful thing since I was 5 years old, no argument there! I just feel like he’s such a polarizing figure, there’s great potential for him to add to the mess rather than cleaning it up.

(Bob M) #5

True. I’m not sure what to do about Willett. Sometimes, he actually says stuff that makes sense, but most times he’s clearly in the vegetarian/vegan camp.

I’m definitely not anti-milk. Many keto/carnivore folk have the idea that milk is used to fatten baby cows, but I find it to be the opposite - I find it makes me full for a very long time.

Of course, when I was younger, I hated the thought of fat, so if I drank milk (which I did not do that often), I drank skim milk.

But, like everything else, they took a single idea (saturated fat is bad) and just applied that to everything I can’t find the study now, but I have a list of saturated fats that are in milk, and there are ton of them. Even and odd chain.

What makes me mad is that it’s not really new evidence (though there is some). It’s none of the old evidence was good either. We should get an apology and they should change the guidelines. It’s unlikely either one of those will happen.

(Alec) #6

I have heard on the grapevine that the saturated fat limits in the new dietary guidelines are going to be lifted for exactly this reason: to allow full fat milk into the diet guide.

This is hardly a breakthrough, but the edifice of lies is starting to crumble…. It won’t be long before the whole lot collapses.

My sincere hope for these new dietary guidelines (which are due for publication imminently) is that there is some recognition of low carb as a reasonable dietary pattern. That’s probably about as good as we can hope for.

#7

You say you don’t know other examples of that?

I can’t imagine how people can eat low-fat dairy, by the way. They aren’t dairy, they are abominations. Except my low-fat quark (all quark is pretty low-fat but this one is 3.5%), it’s surprisingly good. And my milk is only 2.8% fat as it’s enough for me. Oh and it turned out low-fat cream (10% fat, the sale was too tempting) is useful as well but I mostly use it in drinks so water is okay there. Sometimes the protein is more important for me than the fat.
But my country isn’t big on low-fat stuff anyway so we are lucky regarding that (so the people eating huge amounts of fat with their huge amount of carbs and it doesn’t always end well…).

I always have read that milk fat is pretty good, by the way. I mean, I have read/hear nothing before I started to research low-carb at the age of 35 and I tended to read pro low-carb stuff afterwards (I had a paleo phase but it was quick and it’s not like I believe what I read)… Dairy was very hyped in my childhood and we had no low-fat stuff, not like we have many today and even those aren’t super low-fat, usually.
BUT we have light butter. Totally maddening. I hate that some supermarkets have mostly that and it’s not even always noticeable if one isn’t very, very careful.
We have light pork loin too but lean meat is a valid things even if I can’t stomach it, usually. Tastes differ. But if we get the fat out of a fatty dairy item, it just ceases to be that item, it damages its imagine, flavors, everything. I am not even sure how low-fat dairy “works”. Super low-fat milk is just sugary water with a little protein, right? Not milk, obviously…

I hate super low-fat dairy with a passion, I don’t know if it shows. So whenever I read about them, I get a tad triggered.

Oh my god. I hope you can’t get low-fat dairy in schools here but I have no idea. We obviously had full-fat stuff but it was long ago, now there aren’t salt shakers in schools, I have heard… Yeah, bad, bad salt. But everyone must eat grains, fruits 5 times a day (normal people don’t even eat that many times…), vegs 3-5 times a day (green, red AND yellow too or something like that, it’s crazy. in my childhood, they didn’t see anything about the fricking COLOR of our vegs) and at least kids must consume dairy 3 times a day… If I remember well the last rules I have read. It’s totally wrong, I basically go against every little rule all the time and I know I eat well enough.
These started ages ago, I like to read old cookbooks, the ones where there is a lot of text beyond the recipes, they show something about how people in that era lived and thought, well, at least many and the official quides (unless the author was revolutionary but I don’t think I saw that ever).

I don’t know the quidelines or even customs of many country, do you know any where the guidelines are more sane?
Ours do have some sane ideas in them, it’s probably true for the US ones as well - but most ideas would be extremely damaging to my life and it’s not like I am some special snowflake outsider. My SO is a high-carber and he eats very, very differently from the quidelines too. I don’t even know how anyone could follow those detailed numerous rules, it must be stressful…
The rules ALWAYS forget that we aren’t all the same. We know some needs of the human body (even there are big personal differences), we should eat our essential nutrients but how and when and in how many meals, that’s quite individual and not as important as the guides apparently think.

What does that mean there? Here normal yogurt is very low-fat as it is yogurt, around 3% fat, maybe? But I am aware there are something lower for the fat-phobics (or IDK who), I don’t remember seeing that kind though, more than once at least.

Fat percentage? We don’t have goat yogurt here.

Lucky! I can’t get goat milk anymore but I had it a few times in my life and it was interesting :slight_smile: It has a twist in its flavor. I need the neutral cow milk for my drinks and whatnots but I could get used the occasional goat milk :slight_smile:

That’s true but it doesn’t mean I can’t drink it :slight_smile: I need to do it carefully as it brings much sugar and fat otherwise… But I need to be careful with basically everything as my energy need isn’t high. Milk and milk powder is worth it, hands down. In moderation.

Lucky! Satiation wise, it’s water to me. I probably very easily could drink 2 liters on top of my normal food (not at once - though it sounds easy for a not very quick meal, honestly - but during my eating window). I obviously don’t do that, thankfully my desires aren’t that high. A little is lovely.

Skim milk is something with very very little fat, right? We commonly just have 2 kinds, normal (2.8% fat) and low-fat (1.5% fat, I only put it into my coffee at a relative, it’s not yuck but not good). The third most common type (available in bigger supermarket chains, not in small ones) is 3.5-3.6% fat and I almost never saw any other kind. I don’t need the really fatty stuff so I don’t pay the usually significant extra price for it. If it’s on a great sale, sure, why not but I don’t notice a big enough difference.
When we bought raw milk, it had its original fat level, whatever that meant. It depends on the cow. Well that was amazing. But not just because it was fattier, the 3.6% one is nice but not THAT nice. I have drank freshly milked foamy warm milk too, yum… Mmm, down the memory lane…
I am very, very fond of (normal fat) dairy. Not all kind but many and I can’t imagine skipping them, only minimizing them, sometimes.
I have a whipped cream day today. I need some fat along with my lean pork anyway so I won’t be too shy. I focus on lean meat exactly to allow my fatty dairy in my diet even when I hopefully start to lose fat. I NEED my fatty dairy, it can’t be helped. I ate them all my life and don’t plan to stop.

Good luck to embrace normal dairy, lands of the super low-fat abominations!
By the way, how do they taste? As bad as I imagine? Except I denied their existence all my life (except my first decades when I had no idea they kind of exist) so my braincells stop instead of thinking about it. But I vaguely guess it can’t be good. I tasted low-fat quark once, don’t remember the fattiness but it was BAD even after mixed with sour cream or cream. The low-fat quark I eat now is surprisingly good. Maybe the old one was super low-fat…? I don’t willingly ate any other kind of super low-fat dairy in my life but it’s not like it’s easy to get that here. I am curious but still can’t buy things I know I would hate.

(KM) #8

The thing is, taking out fat doesn’t remove lactose. So many of these things taste peculiarly sweet to me compared to the full fat version. It’s not a pleasant sweetness in my opinion. “Full fat” or “whole” milk is 3.25%-3.5%. you can get 2%, 1%, and “skim milk” which is less than .5%

I’m guessing it will take another half century before the average American believes whole milk is better for them than 2% even if they do change the guideline. It’s been beaten into our heads for 60 years. My mother is always very proud of the fact that she’s “gotten herself down” to drinking 1% milk.

#9

Apparently we have 0.5% milk too, somewhere. 0.2%. 0.1%. Just because I never see it, it exists somewhere… I have found a few images of those but not many.
And some places still have bagged milk :smiley: When I was a child, milk only came in bags :slight_smile: (Or nothing and we had to bring our jar to get it but that was special.)

So they are sweeter. Well that can’t save them. The fat must be sorely missed by fat-lovers like I. What a crazy idea, to take away the fat… How come people was fine with it? It’s strange. Even with some pressure, people prefer eating tasty thing, many countries show it. I guess the US had it worse and when one is born into something and the parents were easily influenced… Ugh. Tragic.

#10

Let’s be real, if you’ve paid attention to him pre this administration and election, he was typically considered a nutcase on the right because he has historically been about clean eating, and going against the Monsanto’s of the world and being against our food supply being chemical-ized crap for many years prior to this, which nobody with a brain in their heads can disagree with.

Since he took a position with Trump, then the left who has historically been supportive of him, decides that he’s a “nutcase”, despite him not changing at all. The only thing that changed about him is the D after his name became an I.

Same exact cancel culture that Elon musk has now dealt with. He was the second coming of Jesus to the left UNTIL, he took up the position to head DOGE.

You’re either for food becoming food again, or you’re not, all it comes down to in the end. I vote for people, and I support people. Not political parties, there’s a word for people that let others think for them and tell you who’s good and bad, they call them cult members.

(KM) #11

I know I shouldn’t go here, please try not to take this to political extremes anyone. Most of RFK’s ideas about diet and true health for ordinary people DO resonate with me, but I am appalled at his vax stance, which I did not know about until after he was appointed. I have no idea if his position changed at that point or if I just never heard of it before, but I strongly disagree, IMO this is the opposite of a people-supportive position, and I don’t think pulling qualified people from NIH or CDC is particularly supportive either. I’m stating my opinion and I realize that YMMV, in which case supporting him makes more sense.

(Kirk Wolak) #12

In my lifetime, some of the most vilified people/doctors have been proven correct.
I look at their message, their positions. Do they change their mind when the facts change. Are they trying to swim against the current? What are they actually saying?

I had to educate a good friend who applied such words to 2-3 doctors I had solid respect for. When those words are not backed up by specific instances of what they are saying, it’s simply to “warn people away from them”. At one point, he realized “Wow, that’s right. When I read what he said, it seems SANE and the questions are normal questions. AND the person being attacked usually cites references I can verify.”

IMHO, the MEDIA has painted RFK Jr. to look like a cook. And 80% of people on both sides will go with what they have been told.

I read his book. The Real Anthony Fauci. The chapter on AIDS was well-researched. I had read 80% of the material he based that chapter on, over the decades as I did my own research! (And the new stuff was sickening, and accurate).

Go back and find the interview he did with Megyn Kelly. She had the fact checkers go through the stuff before they would air it. Just to be safe.

I find that he speaks from a position of knowledge and humility. He knows he could be wrong. But he knows SOMETHING AINT RIGHT! And I agree.

This is not an attack on you or anyone else. This is a warning about how easy it is for the Media to taint your views on a PERSON by painting them with a negative brush. And the less specific the claim, the better (because our brains fills in the details).

Think about how they phrase the Carnivore Diet as “Extreme or Dangerous”.
Without Evidence. (A phrase they use effectively to make something sound bad when they don’t like it, but never applied to their analysis).

We are about to learn how corrupt things have been.
And NOTICE, every time RFK Jr. found corruption. The media DID NOT do a deep dive to show us the corruption. The defended the “old guard” instead.

I now believe that you should watch the news ONLY to find out what lies your government needs you to believe! (yeah, regardless of the channel).
So I might be cynical, but my trust is now ZERO. I read everything critically,
as if they are more likely to be lying to me than telling me the truth!

(KM) #13

I’m generally in agreement with your assessment - there is very little objective truth being sought in this world, and the louder the cheering squad for any position or “fact”, the bigger the vested interest often turns out to be.

My point is just that as a person who’s already been “tainted”, anything RFK says will probably be seen as simply wrong. I have a problem with his vax position … maybe because I have a problem with My vax position. I am so against random control and black and white thinking, but vaccination is one of the very few places I think, historically speaking, nanny state control levels have been both beneficial and necessary. Cognitive dissonance, for sure!

(Kirk Wolak) #14

Me too, until my daughter was vaccine injured at 1yr. Then I started doing a lot of research. I was aghast at what I found. And the deeper I dug, the worse it got. My biggest issue is the mandate. Nobody should be forced (if they work, then the person absorbs the risk). Finally, “herd immunity” came from vets and it was about “owned cattle”. The farmer had the RIGHT to strive for herd immunity. He owned the herd. If it was bad for the herd. He suffered. Applying that term to citizens… Seems wrong.

Industry Capture, fraud, and kickbacks. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it.

It’s so similar to the low-carb/carnivore stuff. Good Doctors getting shut down for being correct.
My rule of thumb: IF one side is NOT ALLOWED to be debated… Then we are being manipulated.
Flat Earth Believers (sorry) are the best example. The more they talk, the dumber they look.

And, buyer beware. I have accepted there are MANY truths I will likely never know… But hiding the debate is NOT the answer.

God Bless!

#15

Honest question, because like everything, there’s his actual vax stance, then there’s what people keep claiming his stance is, despite it coming out of his mouth more times than I can count, you’re entitled to your own beliefs as everybody is…but. His stance is he’s not pro or against, he’s for safety. He’s stated many times he’s never been against those in the high risk groups getting them, and he’s mainly not for the forced vaccination of people that don’t want them or don’t need them. I feel that’s a pretty sane stance.

Plus let’s not forget during that last “event” when we knew they weren’t proven safe and kids were getting messed up, people that were otherwise healthy dying within days and having issues, my mother got it 3 times, she’s been having strokes since then. We were told they were safe for kids, then the myocarditus thing, then found out it kept happening after they said it was worked out and safe.

What exactly are you applled at? Clearly you don’t have to anwer that, but that’s curious to me.

On pulling “qualified people” from NIH and CDC, you mean the people that were helping suppress what we knew to be true and lie about it to the American people? Or something else. NIH shouldn’t be political, but they are, very much so. The fact they tie themselves to basically royalties on drug sales which they grant themselves de-facto patent shares on is what’s appalling, why would they ever reject something when they themselves would lose billions if they ever did? That’s not supposed to be what they’re about.

I used to think despite their insane level of corruption, they were at least somewhat trustworthy when it came to kids, they took that from themselves as well. NIH and CDC can only be fixed after they’re torn to the ground. What’s said is all this was actually called conspiracy theory until Fauci got hot mic’d and him seeming to enjoy admitting it was a lie and intentionally making peoples lives harder so they’d comply.

(KM) #16

I’m usually an advocate for personal choice above everything. In this case I think part of the problem is drawing a line about “greater good”. As I understand it, as history seems to bear out, in order to protect ‘humanity’ from a disease, it’s essential to limit incidence. If an individual opts out, they’re not just taking on risk for themselves, which should be a freedom any person is entitled to, they’re increasing the risk to everyone, including people likely to die if they are infected, which is maybe not a freedom that’s objectively appropriate. How do you balance personal choice - which currently, problematically yes, appears to carry risk to someone, yourself or children if you do, everyone else if you don’t - and greater good???

I do stand on a fence about this. I was born in the year measles vaccine was available. I got all my shots like any good puppy. I have my boomer badge of honor, the smallpox scar. (I also have pre-verbal memories of hiding under my pediatrician’s sink, biting and shrieking in fear and near hysteria. Perhaps seminally induced PTSD is an argument against all of this, my gut Still tightens up.) But misery aside, This. Protocol. Worked. I didn’t get these diseases and I didn’t infect anyone else.

Do we have better options with more personal choice now? Maybe we do. Maybe we don’t. Maybe we could if we were prioritizing clean research, transparency and true greater good including personal agency, over political rhetoric and profit.

#17

Fair enough, it’s nuanced as hell, as we seem to agree, people have the choice to do (or not do) anything to their body, but then there’s the hiccup, when it’s a REAL threat to millions, what do you do? People want it to be black and white, and it never will be. We have to respect personal liberties above all else, because the reality is we can’t trust the people making those decisions to make them. But we only have ourselves to blame if we make a bad call. If they were more truthful about how (not) ready they were, many people would have been better off.

Agreed, but here’s the problem there, it’ll never happen. Drug companies have to make money, all that research costs billions, and politicians have been compromised since that word was invented. If the FDA didn’t make it near impossible to bring drugs to market it would be better, but at the same time you need to oversee them… but that costs money, given the FDA like most US Gov’t is WAY too big and costly to run, it needs to be brought back down to it’s core duty, not a single thing more. There’s not too many places where people get Gov’t jobs to become rich, complete opposite, but it sadly works here!

Then of course theirs the political garbage, when Clinton/Gore basically invented the mindset of DOGE, it was celebrated, Pelosi herself was a huge fan, and also very much for fixing trade and slamming China with Tarrifs because of how bad the trade balance was with them…and that was THEN! Then Obama/Biden pulled a DOGE again, cut jobs, closed and sold gov’t bldgs that were rotting away, and again, it was celebrated. Hillary Clinton wanted to round up all illegals and imprison them until their debt was paid to the US and (then) would deport them, way more drastic than Trump offering money to them so they could “self deport”. But if Trump does it and everybody wants to burn the White House down, RFK basically DOGE’d FDA and NIH and more specifically goes after corruption, and the same people that were by his side a year ago now calls him crazy.

We’re in a very screwed up world! People are more concerned what letters after names are, and what other people on the internet think, rather than actually just thinking about something.

Don’t worry though… they’ll be a drug for that :rofl::rofl::rofl:

(Kirk Wolak) #18

I appreciate you stating your position. I mean no disrespect. As I said before, I had to climb down this rabbit hole. I learned that Propaganda was used to “educate” people about the inherent risks to keep the vaccination rates high (even if that mean vilifying people). Before my daughter was born, I could have posted EXACTLY what you posted (and that is probably the power of Propaganda).

Unfortunately this does not count as a proof of any kind. The second half, is actually unknown (did you infect anyone else). You cannot know that. It is unknowable, unprovable. Why? Because being vaccinated does NOT prevent you from being a carrier or spreader. This is well known. It simply protects you. It can reduce how long you might be a spreader. (Simple example, you get the virus on your skin/clothing, and touch someone else, or leave it behind on a desk, door knob, etc). [To complete the logic, if you argue that you KNOW you never came in contact with Polio, then being vaccinated had no impact on that outcome]

Worse you can more easily become an asymptomatic spreader.
(My daughter caught chicken pox from a vaccinated friend, his slight fever came the next day after playing here with her, and then they called, and I think it was 2-3 days later she showed the symptoms.)

Respectfully, no. Not to anyone who has been vaccinated (if they work). Not to anyone who will naturally survive (99%).

Yes, MAYBE to those who are weak, old, feeble, other ailments, etc. Agreed. THAT latter group is the group that Should Quarantine (and if they don’t, they accept the risk). And anyone who is sick, should probably Quarantine (That is the original standard).

Instead of “greater good”, I know think in terms of “Best Outcome with the Least Demands”

(KM) #19

Thank you both for keeping it civil. I’m bowing out now. I’m on vacation, took a flier on a “boutique” hotel instead of a Mariott, and this is in the corner of my hotel room. Not in the lobby, in my suite. l mean, honestly … i apparently have access to a second rate tardis. RFK can wait!

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(Bob M) #20

I think the government made a massive mistake when it went on the low fat paradigm. Because so many people found that going off that made them feel better, and then it becomes hard to believe anything the government says…especially because they keep going, don’t back down, don’t apologize, don’t anything.

I was that person who ate a very low fat diet, thinking that saturated fat was deadly. And even back then, 30+ years ago, there was no evidence for it. Zero. Yet they pushed it on everyone.

And, with my research skills now (granted, back when I was on low fat, there was really no way to research this unless you had a fancy library around and were willing to spends days/weeks in it), it takes almost no time to realize that “saturated fat” is complex. Here’s a list of saturated fatty acids:

There are 37 of them. I can’t find the study, but they listed the saturated fat in cow’s milk, and there were so many in cow’s milk.

One of the many fatty acids we weren’t getting because we ate low fat dairy:

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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300908424002347

This is one of the reasons I restarted adding dairy to my diet. EVERY study I’ve seen where they measured the levels of C15:0 (Pentadecanoic acid) in blood has shown the people with higher levels have benefits. (NOTE: correlation does not equal causation, but they have other RCTs where they gave people C:15 and those people had benefits.)

You can’t come out and say,“We’ll we’ve finally reviewed all the evidence for and against dairy, and the evidence saying we should reduce fat in it is complete garbage and has been” (which is what they’re nicely saying), yet not do anything.

And I know there are people who have trouble with dairy. I’m 100% sure that’s the case. Due, I believe, to my almost 100% European and 7X% Eastern European genetics, I’m not one of those people. If I eat a piece of cheese, I have no desire to eat another (contrast that with bacon or nuts). If I eat/drink or don’t eat/drink dairy, I can tell no difference. My inflammatory markers are lower WHILE eating dairy. (Let’s ignore A1/A2 for now, as I honestly can’t tell the difference, though I try to stick to A2 dairy.)

As for vaccines, my daughter is not vaccinated (until covid), and has been diagnosed with autism (pre covid). I’ve come full circle and now take all my vaccinations. I think there’s inflammatory confusion. I think inflammation from viruses/many other elements (lyme, bartonella) is probably the cause of autism, and vaccines temporarily increase inflammation, so they LOOK like they’re causing autism, but they are only adding to what’s already there. That’s my current theory. That’s all I’ll say in this area.

@kib1 That’s kinda cool.

Edit: If you can’t eat dairy, but want to get the benefits of C:15, you can buy it here:

I have tried this, but I’m not sure I could find much if any benefit. Though I have never had my C:15 levels checked, so maybe I already have high C:15? And, like all supplements, it’s expensive.