Study about "dairy" (skim milk) from Dr. Ede's book

(Bob M) #1

I love Dr. Ede, and have been reading parts of this book:

The diet she suggests is a Paleo diet (without dairy, which is what Paleo is).

I wanted to know why she suggested without dairy, so I looked at one of the studies she suggested showed higher insulin, blood sugar, and insulin resistance. (NOTE: I highly recommend everyone test dairy, primarily through eating a diet for a while without dairy, then adding dairy back in to see what happens. I’m not saying dairy is good or bad, though I have tested no dairy versus dairy multiple times and cannot find an issue for me for eating the dairy I eat. I chalk this up to my 7X% Eastern European and 100% European heritage.)

This is the study:

These were the groups:

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(1) 53g Protein; (2) 1.5 liters of skim milk; (3) or 250g low fat meat.

Here’s the data from (about) 1.5 liters of skim milk:

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They compared zero carbohydrate protein or meat with something that adds 76 grams of carbs per day. Of course there’s going to be higher insulin and insulin-resistance metrics.

Compare that with what I eat/drink from dairy. I drink around 6 ounces (don’t measure it) of raw, full fat milk, 4+ days a week. Usually 4. If might have full fat yogurt too, from what I believe are cows that produce A2 milk. If I have yogurt, that might be daily. Again, don’t measure intake. I might have some cheese sometimes, maybe 1-2 days a week (or not). Usually only on hamburgers and “taco” meat. I sometimes will add some sour cream to my “taco” meat (don’t actually eat “tacos” though, only the meat and sauce).

That’s about it.

Eating this way, I’m at my lowest weight I’ve been since I was fasting a ton. My belts all need replacing. I’m on the last hole. If there is a detriment to eating the dairy I’m eating, I can’t find it.

I have nothing against thinking that dairy causes issues for many people and that people would be best to start without it. But I think a study that compares a lot of skim milk with meat or protein does not indicate that “dairy” is bad.

(Chuck) #2

I am 76 years old and I have been drinking milk and eating dairy my whole life. I eat only real food no processed food. The simple rule is if man created it don’t eat it. I haven’t ever been hospitalized or had a more serious illness other than a mild flu.
But I also say this if what you are doing isn’t broke don’t fix it. My diet isn’t broke.

(KM) #3

There’s a lot of science to unpack, but I think the practical-sense answer (from the standpoint of defining a Paleo Diet) is that pre-pastoralist humans probably didn’t have much or perhaps any sort of animal milk except for human milk in their diet and only in early childhood. While we may have lactose tolerance if our later ancestry developed it, we didn’t start out that way.

For myself, I’m very glad to be lactose tolerant and take full (perhaps excess) advantage of it! Go Cheese! (oh no, wait, that’s something else …)

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Go, real cheese! And cream! And Butter!

#4

Yeah, don’t compare those two… If I removed dairy, I would consume more carbs (except if I could stick to carnivore but it’s unlikely. I can’t live on eggs and meat, there is a reason I use dairy for variety… I had no dairy carni days but very rarely and I had to add it back soon)…
These studies which don’t really take into consideration what people do when their dairy items are taken, doesn’t help me. And who eats skimmed milk? Sounds horrible. I am half-horrified knowing someone who eats low-fat dairy but that’s 12% sour cream and 1.5% milk. We don’t really have skim milk here, I only saw that once in my life (it’s possible one can get it if they really want, I don’t know). Yogurt and cream cheese is available super low-fat but not milk as far as I know. I get it, that must be some weird dirty water, not milk.

And just because one eats dairy, it doesn’t necessarily means one eats in galore. Or that they get a lot of carbs from it. I rather get fat from my dairy, some protein and yes, sugar too but not in excessive amounts. I bet that makes a difference :wink:

But I figured out after drinking 1 liter milk (the normal one, 2.8% fat) at once without any negative consequences (and not getting any positive thing from my lactose-free times) that my body tolerates dairy so I don’t do any attempt to skip it. Just keeping it low as I can’t afford all that fat and anyway, dairy isn’t satiating to me so it helps with overeating.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

All mammals become lactose-intolerant at some point after weaning. (After all, why should the body continue to produce an enzyme it no longer needs?) Lack of ability to produce lactase in adulthood is the human default, because it is the mammalian default.

There are, however, two known mutations in human beings that allow the possessor to consume lactose in adulthood: one occurred among the Maasai, the other among Northern Europeans.
There has been enough inter-breeding to make a good many people capable of consuming lactose in adulthood, but there are still a good many people who lack those mutations.

The point of dairy on keto is to avoid the high-sugar forms, such as whole milk (which has enough sugar to make it undesirable on a keto diet) and skim milk (which has more sugar per cup than whole milk). Heavy cream contains little to no sugar because it’s almost exclusively fat and water (but check the nutrition panel on the carton, just to be safe!), and the hard, aged cheeses have little or no sugar, because the fermenting bacteria have eaten it all up.

A separate issue, apart from lactose intolerance, that affects a good many people is a sensitivity to dairy proteins. This may be yet another reason for such people to avoid dairy.

(Bob M) #6

Yeah Northern Europeans! I have heard this is true from others. Anyone know what the actual genetic mutation is, in terms of a genetic test? I’d like to confirm that I have that mutation based on my genetic results, because I don’t seem to have any issues with dairy.

And unlike some people, eating dairy doesn’t cause me to want to eat more. That is, I can eat a slice of cheese and be done eating. Some people supposedly aren’t like that.

Unlike, say, ice cream, pizza, nuts, nut butters, bacon, …which are my downfall.

(Geoffrey) #7

Well it only makes sense since milk is full of sugar in the form of lactose and when you remove all of the fat as in skim milk or low fat milk all that is left is the sugar. That’s why I won’t even low fat or skim cheese or any dairy product that isn’t made from full fat dairy.
I love dairy and and make my own yogurt but I use heavy whipping cream for it.
Even though I am not lactose intolerant (yes, Northern European ancestry) and can handle all dairy, I do fall into the camp that adult mammals have no need to drink milk. I’ll just stick with water.

(Bob M) #8

I started drinking raw milk because (1) I could find some and (2) some people think it helps repair the biome. I have no way of knowing whether #2 is true, but I have been slowly losing weight while drinking raw milk. Of course, raw milk could have nothing to do with losing weight. It might be just a coincidence.

(Chuck) #9

I drink a lot of whole milk, I eat cheese and real butter and even butter milk. I am 77 years old and have done this my whole life. I make smoothies most days of the week out of whole milk or heavy cream, almond milk, avocados, baby spinach, flash frozen berries or fruit and whey protein.

(KM) #10

Reread please? I’m saying exactly what you’re saying, I believe.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

Precisely!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #12

Yes. I wasn’t criticising, merely amplifying. There is a lot of confusion around dairy, because of lactose-intolerance on the one hand, and and problems with dairy proteins on the other, and the discussion often gets muddied. I also find the fact that lactose-tolerance is promoted by two separate mutations to be both fascinating and significant. The “incorrect” business is misleading, I grant you, so I edited the post. There was a point there, but trying to express it would actually make for a long-winded amplification that I’m not up for.

(Bob M) #13

Chuck, how is buttermilk? I’ve only ever used it in recipes. I’ve never tried to drink it.

(Chuck) #14

I grew up on a farm and learned to like it. Not many will like it. I love it with fresh out of the oven cornbread.

(Bob M) #15

Anything with fresh out of the oven cornbread is probably good. :wink:

The next time I get some for a recipe, I’ll try it. Usually, I have to freeze half the buttermilk anyway, as the recipes don’t use much.

(Geoffrey) #16

Oh I get it. Some just like to drink it.
When I counsel people who are eating carnivore and they come to me asking why they aren’t being successful I find that it’s usually the milk or dairy they are consuming. Milk is designed to help mammals to grow quickly and it does that well. It’s also why I don’t see a need for it after about 5 years old.
For those who enjoy drinking it and it causes not ill effects or weight gain then it’s a nice treat to enjoy and beats the heck out of a coke.

#17

I definitely like my milk and see no problem with it. Cream is sugary too! But yes, I can’t (well let’s say I don’t want to try… but as I mentally stop myself before trying, I can’t…) drink a liter of cream in a few hours while I could do it with milk (and milk is a bit more sugary anyway). I don’t do it, that was just once when we brought back milk, I just could (and would feel great afterwards). Milk is nice and sweet, even according to my high-carber SO but we didn’t feel it back then when we still ate added sugar. Cream is sweet too, of course.
I use milk in moderation (a little in my coffees, usually. and I share the milk with my SO. he rarely uses it but then a lot) and all is well. Yogurt is worse as I easily get huge amount of sugar from it in some seconds… So even when I am careful and just taste it, it can be much. I always considered yogurt some kind of dense sugary water (and it is), Greek yogurt (10% fat) is somewhat rich and more solid but it’s not so easy to eat in moderation. Of course, drinking milk could be even quicker but I use it so often I quickly learned to moderate it while yogurt is a rare treat and then I just eat half of the big cup in no time even when I try not to… :slight_smile: Minimum possible amount to eat is something I should consider when it comes to food items. The sugar in percentage has nothing to do with my decisions. Banana is always fine on keto for me as the carb intake from it is minimal (it was less than the sugar from my eggs even in the beginning when I still needed my daily banana with chocolate. I am good with moderation if the food item is super flavorful and I don’t use it to satiate my hunger) unless I deliberately go far (I never feel an irresistible pull when it comes to banana anymore, I have all the choices and can stop at any time). Yogurt ensures I will go over 20g carbs, not like it has anything to do with my ketosis carb limit, mind you but the other 20g is easy to use up for my normal carni food.

(Edith) #18

According to the Vinland sagas, the first Vikings that tried to settle in Canada, had done some trading with the Native Americans. Eventually, they traded some milk with them. The Native Americans came back on the warpath. The theory is because they got sick from drinking the milk and thought the Vikings tried to poison them. The Native Americans were not lactose tolerant.

https://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/saga.htm#:~:text=The%20Norse%20offered%20to%20trade,ancestry%2C%20could%20not%20digest%20milk.

(Bob M) #19

That would make sense. And it’s probably not easy to milk a bison, if they were around. :grinning: